mrnixon

I aggree with you. And from an economical point of view a second hand gen is a far better choice. After a few years there is an obvious risk that the rep is broken and cannot be repaired, which means that it is practically worthless. If one instead has bought a gen., you will most likelly have a perfectly working watch also after 5 years, and if you want to sell it you will probably be able to get the money back. So even if the price of a rep can makes it tempting and gives the feeling of making a bargain, many of them will probably end up being more expensive.

The replica buying decision has to be tempered with good judgement and more than just a little skepticisim. A luxury price for an un-waranteed, poorly QC'd watch of unknown origins quickly tempers my enthusiasm. A mid to high hundreds genuine is always a better choice.

I am willing to pay more than 300 usd for watch if I know that it is very good quality and will last a very long time. That means for me a Panerai 111 with a swiss ETA/Unitas. From what I have understood there is not much that can break on that watch so the only thing where spare parts or service will be required is the movement, and since it is a common and uncomplicated movement I think every watch maker should be able to help me with that every fifth year.

So considering that I can keep it for a long time (10-20 years?) I think it offers a good value.

I would not pay a similar amount of money for a watch with a poor movement or with other items quickly worn out (screw crowns, bezels etc). A few of those good looking but poor quality items will add up to what you pay for a pretty good second hand gen. such as the Omega James Bond Seamaster etc. Another advantage is of course if buying a common 2nd hand gen is that you can sell it and get you money back. That might be considerably more difficult if you instead have three reps with asian chronograph movements which in worst case dont work any more.

I have never seen a 1655 rail dial. Do you have any info about this watch. My 1665 has it, and one come across it rather often on that model, but the 1655 I have never seen. If you have more info I would be happy to look at it.

BT- The 1655 has been around the $12k to $14k range for a while now (depending on dial type- Standard vs. Rail)... Easily over the past 12 months.

The reason why it is so collectible now is because it didnt sell very well when launched, which I can understand. I had a gen until recently, mainly because it was the type of watch one "has to have" in a vintage sports rolex collection. However, I decided to sell it simply because it is actually rather ugly watch and all the different indexes also make it a bit difficult to see the time. I prefered my gen 1665 over my 1655 so much that the 1655 never got any wrist time.

15 bids... and look at the price!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-ROLEX-1655-EXPLOR...1QQcmdZViewItem

@Neil - You made recommendations regarding Andrew & Josh's punishment the other day. I don't think its fair to take shots when they seem to be making an effort to comply with those recommendations.

I personally aggree with you. I think it is nice if the dealers avoid commenting eachother. Sure, pure technical contributions (quality issues, movements, manufacturing technology etc) are of course allways welcome and valuable, but that one dealer discusses other dealers businesses, or suggests how this forum should punish other dealers I dont find particularly proper.

IMHO one dealer critisizing his competitors we can live without, and promotion of the dealers own goods (incl service and other competitive advantages) should be conducted at the dealers section. To have dealers doing promotion in general discussion forums just creates confusion I think.

Wow! Very impressive work! If you have any pictures from the modification work, I and think alot of the other forum members, would be very interested seeing them.

I will just answer some of you comments cut from your entire message below.

"Sorry Mr Nixon.....did I fall asleep during your lecture.......ahh.....I'm up to speed.......so let's discuss your lack of comprehension....!"

Are you sure it was not your own rather rude lecturing of other members (Giormani et al) in previous posts making you tired? It is often more tireng to lecture than to listen/read.

"So what was it that YOU were saying that was constructive or of general interest........help me out here.....hit me over the head with a wet fish and call me Nancy......but I am sure I saw a mediocrity post something mediocre.....and of course...I...being the patron Saint of Mediocrities....feel inclined to step in and assist you.....!"

If I just skip the nonsense (ie 80% of it), I was supporting a way of exchanging views here at the forum, which I think is important although you obviously dont share that view. Further, I thought you are speaking to the entire forum by posting something here, and I also happen to be a forum member reading your messages.

"Now you've caused me to take this very serious thread and turn it into something else.......so let's take it just one step further...do you want me to show you me being a reallly RUDE boy......if not then the best advice I cah give you has to do with sex and travel.....!"

I think ther entire forum is already perfectly aware of your lack of manner and ability of being rude, so that is no news. We have seen how you have been blocked from here becuase of your behaviour and also entire threads have been discussing what is "wrong with" (as the title was) you. That is why me and probably alot of other forum members would not dream of buying stuff from someone who does not even not the very basics of how to behave. Just fyi, normaly people dont brag about how rude they can be, instead they try to behave.

And with this answer, I'm not going to lower myself to the level of getting into any further discussions on this topic. There are simply more enjoyable things to do that than that.

ZZZzzzzzzzzzzz........

My first comment was directed at Nebakanezar......who was trolling.....with his comment to the OP.....calling him a whiny [censored].....now I see that you did not find fault with his comment...despiet the fact that it was extremely rude.......but you did with mine.....which leads me to the conclusion that you probably fancy me....( going by some of your other oh so perky posts in topics where I've commented ).....well you can't have me.....but you can have a part of me...unfortunatley it won't be the part that causes you to wake up in cold sweats at the very thought of it....I'm not that way inclined.....!

My second comment was directed at Giormani.....who confessed that he didn't read the topic....but was inclined to voice an ignorant opinion.....this is a serious topic...and if one is going to be constructive in either criticism or praise regarding it....then it should be expected that you acquaint yourself with the subject before opening your mouth and letting your belly rumble........that's what giormani did.....no doubt he swallowed another Bud.....sat back bored at watching his good lady in yet another menage a trois.......and decided....I know...I'll go and show my ignorance on the board again.....which I drew his attention to....!

As for you...I wasn't speaking to you.....we've not been introduced.....but I'll forego the formalities....!

So what was it that YOU were saying that was constructive or of general interest........help me out here.....hit me over the head with a wet fish and call me Nancy......but I am sure I saw a mediocrity post something mediocre.....and of course...I...being the patron Saint of Mediocrities....feel inclined to step in and assist you.....!

Now you've caused me to take this very serious thread and turn it into something else.......so let's take it just one step further...do you want me to show you me being a reallly RUDE boy......if not then the best advice I cah give you has to do with sex and travel.....!

Oh...and at the risk of sounding redundant....... in your repost......please at least have something substantive to say or at least add to the proceedings......or topic at hand.. !

If I was in your position, I would have gone for one (1) of really good quality instead of getting three with lower quality movements. The Swiss Eta you will allways be able to service and get spareparts for and you should be able to keep it for a long time. I would therefore go for a 111 or 177 from Davidsen. It seems like he offers the best possible quality and he has also not been involved in any of the problems with fake movements and false statements etc which I think is also nice. By getting one good watch you will have a watch to keep, by getting three lower quality you might end up with three watches in not working soon, and even if a fake watch is rather cheap, three of them still add up to some serious money. So, start with a good quality 111/177, which is a more useful size, have it for a while see if you like and then after that you can start thinking about a 127, or maybe you want to go for a gen 111. The 127 is beautiful watch but it also very large, maybe even too large for many and therefore you might not use it so much. And a wathc that is not used is a allways a waste of money. Before buying a 127, you should also check up the crystal. Several members here at the forum has had problems with them, they simply crack without any particular reason.

After looking for what seems an eternity I settled on a Panerai, then what seemed like another eternity I settled on 3 models. PAM111H/177H, PAM217H and PAM127. Now, seeing as this is my first rep I wanted a bit of a taster so I was thinking of picking up the 111H (or 177H) and 217H with Asian movements from Andrew and if I'm happy with the watches (and I can pull off the 217) I'll go for the 127 from Davidsen.

I've read a lot into comparison of models, and a bit on Asian 6497 movements and I've seen the responses us newcomers get for asking about movements and comparison of Asian 6497's and Swiss 6497's. I've been told the movement details are more refined on the Swiss 6497's but the Asian movement isn't a bad alternative.

So, my question really is do you think it's wise picking up the two watches first as I am instead of picking up a Swiss 217H on it's own (as I would've done, sucker for the 47MM and the "Marina Militare")?

Also whilst I'm here, I've spotted a few straps from BOB that I'd be picking up as well, are there any other recommended places for straps?

Cheers for your help

Darryl

I think it is perfectly in order to state your previous knowledge and understanding before presenting a suggestion. Then we know his basis for certain opinions.

In fact I prefer that over a rude tone in messages saying absolutely nothing constructive or of general interest.

Anyone who exhibits 'asshat' behaviour or comments.......gets lumped in with the suspension of the liars....!

@Giormani...!

If you're not familiar with all the details......then get acquainted with them........if you don't ....then you're not qualified to comment........so stop throwing so many words at the page.......or is that you just like to see yourself in print........DUH...!

195 are afraid it is not anonymous.

Why would they be afraid of that? If this is the case, a very big benefit of this forum is lost. What is a forum on replicas worth if its members feels they cannot freely share views? I think it is highly critical that we share both good and bad experiences. The forum must be for the good of its members, not for the suppliers.

I think the font on your watch is really nice, and would not say that one of them is "terrible" whereas the other one is beautiful, considering the small difference between them. If one is so super concerned with that super small difference, well then it is probably bettter to buy a gen and feel happy because a rep will never ever be 100% the same therefore only cause an enormous frustration of having a "terrible" face. Personally I like the watch, and it is also good quality which I think is very important.

For some the glass is 99% full, and for others it is 1% terribly empty.....

High cannon pin

Superlume

Thick crown

C1 (70) C3(30) sandwich

and several other upgrades over my current 177

It's a huge difference that I'm gonna be happy with Chad

What's the terrible thing that you can see?

I answer your questions in the text:

-So the only thing that makes a Panerai a Panerai is the word on the dial? Thats funny, I thought the case/crown/crown guard were just as much an indicator?

No, but what definitelly makes a fake is when you write Panerai on a watch not made by Panerai. After that you can see all sorts of degrees of immitations. For example just look at how the first submariner quickly became the norm for how almost all divers watches look. And just because you copy the crown guard etc you dont get a Panerai, although as you say it is an indicator.

-I dont mind "homage" watches...just charge rep prices for them, because thats what they are! ie RXW,MM,etc.

I think we can let the price be decided by the seller. The particular watch in this thread for example has been developed over a rather long period of time and with a number of prototypes. All of it made by a german well respected case maker. Most likelly the movement will not require service before starting to use the watch either. Further this company is probably run in a different manner paying taxes, VAT etc.

-I still get ticked that the gen boards allow clearly repped watches on their boards, simply because the gen name was removed. And youre seeing it more and more with the RLX knock offs to! Whats the new pseudo brand again? Alpha? Give me a F'ing break. BUT, at least theyre charging rep-like preices for them. Again, unlike MM & RXW.

Since I'm at this forum which deals with reps, I at least dont get so upset if I see something being less of a rep at another forum.

-I recently saw that one of our dealers carries a rep of the RXW! Wheres the grey area in selling it on TZ? Its a rep of a rep! Hence the ducks/wood analogy!

May you should have told us that you all of a sudden changed the topic from rep of a gen to rep of rep?

It would be nice if you can take a few pictures with the two beside eachother and a few comments.

Aggree with you in your points about "I like the design" points. Although I have not bought one myself, I can fully understand why people by reps. One reason can of course be that one can show off, and also at a lower cost. Although not many people here probably dont want to admit it, it is probably the case. Other reasons can be the logic "well, I get a watch which is almost as good and beautiful but for 10% of the money". It is also good if you are somewhere where you risk loosing or destroying your watch. Others I think like the mechanical handy part of it and see it as an acheivement or a challange to make "the perfect rep". Personally I read the technical discussions with great interest.

Personally I can say that I bought my Homer because I like the design and its quality. If I want to show off I would wear my vintage gen Rolex Seadweller. It is much better from that point of view. Everybody knows about Rolex and the ones knowing a little bit more also realize that it is a collectors watch. Still, I mast say that since I bought my unlabelled Homer, I think it has gotten 90% of the wrist time. Simply because I personlly like the design and to look at it.

Your post underscores how a LOT of members justify buying reps by saying "I buy reps because I like the great design of gens but feel like they're ripoffs, absolutely not because I'm a brand [censored]" but then when someone points out homage watches provide what a lot of members of this board claim they want, which is legitimately replicate the look and function of a more expensive watch for WIS's without unlimited budgets while providing things like some QC and a warranty, etc, the same people often sneer "what kind of dumbass would get some lame knockoff," indicating really it is mostly about pretending that the watch is something it's not, and not about what the watch has to offer. Which I can accept as a motive (99.9% of us are guilty of it to some extent), except some of the same people then turn around and throw people on TZ, PMWF, and really mainstream WIS's in general under the bus for respecting homages but being contemptible of reps. That's disingenuous to me, although I have admit no more disingenuous than WIS's who sniff "I don't understand why anybody buys reps." That's just stupid. You may not do it, but to say you are incapable of understanding the thinking behind it is to announce you have a truly limited capacity to understand human behavior.

Yeah, I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth . . . it's what I do.

A homage is a copy but isn't a trademark infringement. It's a really simple division. Homages are legal and trademark infringements aren't, and that's the criteria used by the gen forums. I can't see where the grey area is.

An example of grey area is for example the Rxw Marina Militare. And that seems to be the reason why we see all the debates about it. The clear cut rep watches there is no discussion about, nor the gens. But the ones in the middle is where we can see different opinions.

First of all I am not trying to defend a certain watch over another. Although I must say I get a bit confused by the rather negative remarks.

But, there is a hell of a difference if there is a fake name on a product or not. If you have written eg Panerai you are showing the name of a company which has nothing to do with the product. If it does not have a name one can argue whether it is a copy or not, but if it has Panerai name on it. Well, then there is no discussion anymore. This is also what you can see at watch forums. MM causes a lot of discussions and strong opinions Some seem to like them and others dont. Fakes (ie with a brand name on them) never trigger that type of discussions. Everybody aggrees that it is a fake watch and as you say their members hate them.

The gray area is that these TZ watch guys thumb their noses at the reps but cream there pants if someone copys a gen but doesn't put Panerai on the dial. You can defend all you want and in a legal sense you're correct but the bottom line is its still a replica. How would buying one of Davidsen's unbranded dial watches with a stock movement be any different.

Sean K

I dont see the problem. It is simply because they consider the homage watches not being fakes? What is so obscene with that? The most distinct aspect is for example that it is not written Panerai on a watch manufactured by someone having absolutely nothing to do with Panerai. From this point of view, I guess one could instead argue that the gen guys are liberal or open minded to homages as long as it is not written Panerai on the watch. The fact that a rep has the name of a manufacturer on definitily qualifies it to be a rep. Absolutely no doubt about that. But when there is no name there is a grey zone, and it seem that the gen guys can accept that, which is not obscene at all I think.

The initial logic I still not understand. And if you changes the criteria in the second explantory one the entire logic falls. But never mind....

I like reps. Lets get that out of the way. But as was said above...reps that are REPS..not ones that purport to be "unknown brand gens".Ones that just so happen to be EXACT copies of watches we know. The big gen sites (ie TZ, P'risti, etc) regularly call us out as scum, but allow the mentioned "reps" to be sold on their forums b/c of a slight modification to the dials.

Their logic:

Reps are bad.

Gens are good.

Reps are gens. (within the aforementioned modified criteria)

D

Very very nice!

I did not really understand the logic with the wood and the duck. Well, actually I did not understand what is to be referred to as obscene on a RW forum when discussing watches far less similar than the watches discussed here. Is what you call obscene the fact that they are to similar to a gen, or is the fact that they are not similar enough to qualify for this forum?

Here is the logic.

Wood floats.

Ducks float.

Ducks are wood.

lol

I think is obscene too. I see reps all the time on TZ and PMWF. You know the ones. The Rollie GMT2 clones, with another name on them. W something or other, or Marcello whats his face. Its ballzy though...Ill give them that. The Anonimo Panny clones I think it is. The ones with just Marina Militare. And for how much?! A grand or more. I dont know who the bigger fools are....the buyers of them or me for not selling them! How they get away with it Ill never know. :-/

D

I agree with you. To be honest I feel a bit divided when it comes to buying a rep. (I have been collecting gen vintage sports Rolexes for 15 years). I like the design, but I also have the feeling of trying to appear as something I am not. And if someone asks me I think I would also feel a bit awkward saying it is a fake watch. I solved my dilema by getting a Pam 111 and soon a 177 unlabeled (ie totally clean no text at all). Then I get the design and the feeling but everybody can see from 20 meters that I am not wearing a Panerai, so no one would think I am going around trying to show of with something which is not real. I also would not have the same problem if it is a homage from an historic model no longer in production, with the same logic as you mentioned below with a classic car. This is just the way I am thinking, and I am sure other people have different views so it is up to each one of us to have our own opinion.

Well if homages are basically reps, and we like reps, we should like homages right?

But I have to admit, I'm not really sure I would buy homages of watches long out of production. That seems to be the one surefire instance you CAN justify buying a rep and admitting your watch is a rep -- if the gen is 70 years old, there's like 14 of them and cost umpteen thousand dollars. It's like with replica cars -- you'd feel like a bit of a tool to be driving a replica 2007 Mercedes, but I don't think anybody would give you a hard time for driving a replica 1937 Mercedes if you said "I love the look but the gen is ludicrously expensive and extremely difficult to drive and maintain."

"meant to look like the original ...not perform like one", does this "perform" refer to the basic function of a watch ie showing the time? In that case I dont agree with you.

And I would not refer to using the timer function on a chronograph as "[censored] about it".

I think, that if one buys a watch for over 200 usd, it is reasonable to expect that it can perform the basic function of showing time that it should last for some time.

I suppose it re-inforces my viewpoint all along.......these watches are replicas....meant to look like the original ...not perform like them....!

I also believe that too many people buy a chrono....and then [censored] about with it....timing boiling eggs.....or how long their farts last.......pressing and resetting....pressing and resetting......even the originals don't stand up to well to it......but that's JMHO.....!

One reason for that could be that cows usually dont spend many years under water......... :-)

Why so?

So should leather

never seen a leaking cow

I think like this about this issue. This forum is set up for the purpose of echanging vital information about reps among us. Isnt it very interesting to know if the watch claimed to have an ETA really does? I think it one of the more basic type of info I want before I buy a watch. Therefore I cannot see any reason not informing the forum exact facts, dealer, when, responces etc and then each of us can draw our own conclusions. I dont see any point hiding information from each other at this forum.

Of course no one wants to read bad news, but for me it depends on the reason for the lack of bad news. The wonderful part would of course be there are no bad event to talk about. The bad part would be that people dont inform each other and we all do the same mistake believing we are buying an ETA but instead it is something else.

I will check mine this weekend and report back to you guys.......wait, wait, should we just shout out who sold me the watch in here (have eta or not) or we should contact the dealer first?

btw......can we invite the dealers here to give us some sort of response?

who <----- keep his finger corss

I aggree with you. For me buying reps is to keep things as simple as possible (not only movements but also everything else), and go for best possible quality. That means getting a basic genuine swiss movement such as 2824 or 6497 and no pushers, rotating bezels etc. That should give you a reasonable chance to get a watch which will last for a long time. No point buying stuff not working and which only looks good in the drawer. To buy something that breaks after a short while, is probably more expensive than buying a second hand gen that you can keep as long as you want and then can sell at approximately the same money as you once paid for it.

Boycott the Asian7750

That

Hello

I have one steel version of an unbranded Pams from Homer (another titanium comming later this week). The dial is totally clean. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/UNITAS-ETA-6497-WATC...1QQcmdZViewItem

I have been thinking (not yet so seriously though) that maybe I should write something or eventually putting a symbol etc on the clean dial. Does any one out there have any experience from this? What kinds or pen/colour to use, how to write the letters properly etc.?