SportsterRider

I never really took much notice of that--so even the newest Eta Subs, for instance, don't utilize real Eta movements?

As far as I know, they've only recently started making Asian 'copies' of the 2824/2836 movements. Unless you JUST bought a Sub, it's unlikely that you have one of these copies. Now, a lot of people assume that if there is a genuine 2824/2836 movement in their rep, then it's swiss. That's only partially true and depends on what you consider "swiss". The vast majority of genuine ETA 2824/2836 movements are assembled in Asia. ETA has assembly plants all over Asia and this is where the majority of them come from. To me, this is good enough as even though it wasn't assembled in Switzerland, it's still using genuine ETA parts from ETA themselves.

Now, the asian COPIES of these movements are NOT ETA movements. This is the same thing with the Asian 7750's. While they are very similar, they are most certainly NOT ETA.

The crystal is only glass--I'm curious as to how to truly tell the difference; I thought water would bead up like a freshly waxed car on sapphire, but on glass it wouldn't? Hmmm...

Every rep that I've ever bought that was advertised as having a synthetic sapphire crystal has had one. For me, the easiest way to tell the different is to tap on the crystal. Sapphire sounds solid. Mineral sounds hollow, almost like tapping on a drinking glass. I can also tell the difference by the way it 'feels'. Sapphire feels smoother to me than mineral glass.

I will add that it seems--and maybe I'm mistaken--but a lot of people think that when they get a "sapphire crystal", they're essentially expecting a slice from an actual sapphire; like a precious stone in a piece of fine jewelery. If real sapphires existed large enough to cut watch crystals from, they'd be in sitting in museums, not under diamond saws. Even Rolex gens use "synthetic" sapphires; they're all lab grown.

I can't speak for others, but when I see an advertisement for a watch that says it has a "sapphire" crystal, I take that to mean synthetic.

From Europestar:

What exactly is synthetic sapphire?

It is a very hard, transparent material made of crystallizing aluminum oxide at very high temperatures. Chemically, synthetic sapphire is the same as the natural sapphire used in jewelry, but without the coloring agents that give the gemstone its various hues.

When it is heated, the synthetic sapphire forms round masses that are sliced into pieces with diamond-coated saws. These disks are then ground and polished into watch crystals. (One reason sapphire crystals are relatively expensive is that the tools required to make them are costly.)

Sapphire (whether natural or synthetic) is one of the hardest substances on earth. It measures 9 on the Mohs scale, which is a system for rating the relative hardness of various materials. (Diamond measures 10, the highest rating.) Watch crystals made of synthetic sapphire are often marketed as "scratch resistant", meaning they are very difficult - but not impossible - to scratch. Diamond can scratch them; so can man-made materials that incorporate silicon carbide, with, with a Mohs rating of between 9 and 10, is, like diamond, harder than sapphire. These materials are sometimes used to make simulated-stone surfaces for furniture or walls. The watch wearer should note that accidentally scraping a sapphire crystal against such a surface could cause a scratch.

Yep - this is a 100% accurate description.

So is it true that my watches (SMP, Sub, etc.) have sapphire (regardless of how, or which lab made it), or are they simple glass/ mineral-glass?

If your watches were described as having a sapphire crystal and the dealer(s) wasn't lying to you, then it's got a synthetic sapphire crystal.

I'm new to the board, but not to reps. Over the years, I've seen some pretty lousy reps describes as 100% accurate, and some outstanding reps as well. In every case though, NONE of them were 100% accurate. I've purchased reps that had a "perfect" dial only to have a terrible cyclops. I've had reps with a perfect case, but a horrible dial or band.

For me, all I want and would expect from a dealer is this:

1) Pictures on the site be of the watch I'm purchasing. I'll use my own judgment, based on these pictures, as to whether it's appearance is 100%, or something close enough to it.

2) If you say it has an ETA movement, then it better have an ETA movement. Thus far, I've never purchased a rep advertised as having an ETA and not gotten exactly that. Ya, most (if not all) of them are assembled somewhere in Asia, but it's still an ETA movement. To me, that's all that matters. Now, they are starting to introduce Asian "copies" of the 2824/2836. These are NOT ETA movements, but are copies in the same vein as the Asian 7750's. If the rep you are selling as a "copy" movement, I want to know!

3) If a watch is advertised as having a sapphire crystal, it better have one. There is no comparison between a sapphire and a mineral crystal. I can tell the difference the second I handle one and to me, this is a deal breaker. I don't want mineral glass and I wouldn't buy a rep with a mineral glass crystal (unless it was a sub $100 rep, which I rarely buy). Again, I've never had a problem here in the past, but it would seem others have.

Basically, the 'mechanicals' of the watch should be 100% accurately described. The aesthetics I can judge for myself assuming a dealer is honest and selling me the same watch that is in the pictures on their site. But I have to rely on the dealer to describe the 'mechanicals' of the watch in an honest way. If they do that, I'm happy.

SR

So what criteria does customs use to decide on what package to open? Also, how does customs know what is 'fake' and what is gen? Do they have in-house watch/jewelry experts on hand to inspect these items?

I could see them being suspicious if a package contained two or more Rolex's, Omega's, etc. But I don't understand what they are using to justify a 'concern' that a watch might be a rep, unless they have a Rolex, Omega, etc representative on-site to say with authority that the watch isn't genuine. It can't just be some customs grunt worker, can it?

Sorry to hear about your watch. Can you tell us what you damaged?

Also, I believe you can buy a tool specifically for removing a bezel. I know it won't do you any good now, but if you think you might do more of this kind of work in the future, it might be something to think about getting.

My wife and I were reminiscing this evening about our teenage years [decades ago]...

We purchased our son his first car in 2002 for his 16th birthday...

It was a 2000 Toyota Corolla...

He was pretty stoked...

Not too sporty in the least, but a nice ride for a first...

Got me thinking about my first...

Ready for this?

My first was a 1972 Ford Pinto...

Powder Blue...

I called it "My Ego Suppression Unit"...

The below picture is not my actual car, but mine was damn close...

Ahhh, sweet years gone bye...

My first car was a 1977 Chevy Malibu. I bought it from my mothers co-worker for $900.00. The catch was, I had to pay off the loan and the insurance coverage before the start of my senior year. So I worked two jobs that summer to pay both off. I was making $3.35 and hour, so paying off a $1000.00 loan and the insurance coverage for the year was no easy task!

My daughter just turned 16 and got her first 'car' this past November.

Man does time fly!

Check out the caption on the heading of this picture. "Mid-Size"?? Boy have times changed! That car was a tank!

Could anyone advise me please?

I have a dealer in China who I have been happily using for three years now. He is very trustworthy and reliable, not to mention excellently priced.

I have recently been sent a watch (Chanel Superleggia) which is faulty and I want to send it back. However, I recently sent a faulty Glashutte back to him, which got stopped at Chinese customs and confiscated. Apparently China do not let watches into the country (check out the other things they won't admit - digital cameras, and a lot of other very odd things).

I sent the Glashutte standard Royal Mail recorded (I'm UK based). Do you think it would make a difference if I sent it fedex or dhl or another courier. I enjoy doing business with him but am worried I won't be able to send anything back to him due to Chinese customs.

These are the only two watches out of 20-30 I have bought that were wrong, but obviously I don't want to lose another one.

Cheers guys

I have no personal experience sending products BACK to China, but from what I've read packing and labeling are very important (things like marking it as a gift, wrapping it in a particular way, etc).

Did your dealer give you any directions on how to package it? I remember reading something from The Zigmeister recently that outlined some of the finer points involved in packaging correctly to reduce the possibility of customs seizure. If you seach the board for it, you might find it useful?

I'll see what I can do. I'll try to do a recording of my white dial EP400...

Sweet! Thanks!

You should hear this thing going, if you think 28.8 is fast, 36,000 is really fast, amazing...

RG

Any chance you could make a recording? I'd LOVE to hear what that sounds like!

Swatch announced a couple of years ago that they had decided to sell ETA's only within Swatch Group. But some Swiss court handled a case againts Swatch for this, and decided that Swatch had to sell also outside of Swatch Group for some more years.

Ya, they have to continue to sell outside of the Swatch Group through 2010. After that, anyone that isn't part of the Swatch Group is SOL.

So Swatch now still sells to aftermarket etc, but maybe smaller quantities, longer delivery time, higher prices etc., which leads to a market gap between demands and supplies. Or is it vica versa....................gap between demands and supplies leads to higher prices etc. ? Whatever - impact is the same.

Here is a link that has a quick blurb about this. These guys are speculating that the new Seiko automatics 'could' fill the gap. If they made a version of this movement in a 28,800 bph, I'd be all for it. I have two Seiko 5's that are running the 7S26 automatic. It's a fantastic movement for the money, but the newer versions with hack and stem winding are even better.

http://velociphilewatch.blogspot.com/2006/...ithout-eta.html

I would like to ask all experts for the quality of a rep saphire crystal.Is the same quality like gen or its more easy to be schratsed??Give me your opinion..or real life experience!!My best regards!

To my knowledge, sapphire is sapphire relative to scratch resistance.

That did occur to me too, but Swatch group are happy to continue to supply movements in quantity to companies making and selling complete watches, and Gruen are well established customers.

It is just the spares market (and rep makers they hope) that is going to be starved.

I read on one of my other boards that they were only going to sell to Swatch Group members. If that's true, it will definitely limit where movements can be had. IIRC, it was one of my Invicta boards that had this information (they were wondering what movement Invicta would use to replace the 2824 they use on their 9837 Subs).

small amounts of hypo cement always worked for me

So how common is it to have a dial glued to a movement? Every rep I've ever had apart (only about 6 or so) used dial feet that attached to the movement. Depending on whether it was an ETA or a Chinese movement, the dial feet were then fastened to the movement by screws (Chinese) or friction clamps (ETA).

Well, for me it was simple economics. To me, there are two types of rep owners - WIS who can't afford the gen that they want, and what I call RIS (Replica Idiot Savants), who are simply replica nuts.

I consider myself a WIS. I own two replica's, both Rolex. I have an LV Sub and a tu-tone DJ. I currently couldn't afford either of these in gen form, so I bought the reps. If/when the day comes that I CAN afford one, or both, I will give my reps away as a gift. This is one of the reasons I haven't purchased a SMP rep yet. I'm likely going to be in a position to be able to afford a gen in the next year or two, so owning a rep of one isn't really a burning desire, despite how good they are. That may change if it ends up being closer to TWO years before I can get one. Then I might pick up a rep to get me by until I get the gen.

I will say that I believe a lot of these reps are damn fine watches. Many of them (my Rolex reps included) would sell for a lot more than I paid for them if they had their own name on 'em. I think my so-called perfect sub is a higher quality watch than the 9937 Invicta I owned. The Invicta goes for ~$300.00. I paid a little over half that for the Sub. But no matter how good they are, they're not the real thing. So for me, again, it's economics.

[censored].

I wore my IWC GST into an AD before I fitted the genuine dial and the guy showed me that the 7750 datewheel used on the Hamiltons was the same as IWC used. Then he said, while holding the Hamilton and the IWC rep both in his hands, that obviously the IWC was better made, of course.

To assume that all ADs are staffed by horologeeks is a gross over-estimation of the skills required to sell a fancy blingwatch.

+1

In my experience, the VAST majority of those behind the counter are NOT 'horologeeks' in any way and are, in fact, oblivious to the hobby. I've been to countless AD's in the past with my tu-tone DJ and have had nothing but compliments about it. I was at a Jared's here in Pittsburgh a couple years ago looking at the tu-tone Sub's. I took my DJ off to try one on and they offered to clean my DJ. When they brought it back (looking fantastic I might add) they remarked at how good the condition was considering that the watch was 6 years old and a daily 'beater'.

I have NEVER had anyone accuse me of wearing a replica. In fact, most people don't notice my watch at all. Those that do have universally complemented me on what I was wearing.

I guess if you are wearing a $200.00 sub rep along with your Wal-Mart jeans and no-name tennis shoes, while driving a 10-15 year old Ford Tempo, you will likely have a hard time convincing anyone that the Rolex or Omega you are wearing is genuine. Don't forget, the rest of your 'look' has to match in order for folks to believe that what you're wearing is authentic.

Can't deny that others are just as clever, or even more so in terms of technical development- There are many out there who are redefining the world of horology (i.e. the TAG V4, etc). Personally I feel that a lot of people overlook the fact that Rolex has been very creative in terms of what's under the casebacks of their watches; that was my reasoning for the above post.

The Seiko Spring Drive is REALLY cool. I'd love to get a close look at one of those as I feel this is one of the MOST innovative and significant developments, in watchmaking, to come about in years!

Overall, I agree with you relative to Rolex and it's innovation under the hood. As far as styling goes, Rolex has been holding a steady course for decades. They were producing the sub when quartz/digital watches were all the rage, and survived. Then the quartz analog came along, and again folks were whining that Rolex (and other brands that didn't get on board with the digital revolution), with it's antiquated mechanical movement, would never be able to compete with a the superior timekeeping of a quartz watch. But in the end, Rolex is still king. It has the most copied designs of all time. The Sub and the DJ have been copied by almost EVERY manufacturer, and are STILL being copied to this day! It's hard to call a design 'stale' when new watch companies are still copying the design to this very day. Invicta made it's mark with what? Yep, a Sub copy. Most dive watches, no matter who makes 'em, are nothing more than a variation of the Rolex Submariner. Oh sure, they'll have orange bezels, or larger cases or what-have-you. But they ALL seem to have their design origins based on the classic Oyster design.

I think as WIS's, it's natural to move on from one obsession to the next. Folks new to the hobby usually start with Rolex because Rolex set the standard. As a person becomes more hooked on the hobby, they begin to notice the other brands and to appreciate design trends from other manufacturers. That doesn't mean Rolex has suddenly become 'stale'. It just means that, as a WIS, new and different territory becomes part and parcel of the hobby!

So no, I don't think Rolex has taken a back seat to anyone. Not in the Gen market OR the rep market. Message boards are but a tiny fraction of the market for either category and they tend to be populated by the most extreme WIS-types. So of course these boards will tend to focus on the newest stuff - in this case, the newest and/or most accurate rep's to date. Right now, that seems to be Omega and Breitling offerings, so that's what is being talked about the most.

Interestingly enough, even with all the new 'super' reps coming out for Omega and the others, new Rolex topics still equal or outnumber the others. Hard to call that taking a back seat!

Anyway here's another pic of the symbol on the PO, not hi-res enough but a start...

My gen SMP had this symbol on the caseback. It was a 2003 model.

I think its the Congress building and not the white house but I guess its the same general idea

Good catch!

the watch was, naturally, not repaired, the comment on the package was merely meant to make custom problems easier.

any ideas to get out of this one?

Couldn't you fab up a repair work order? Maybe something simple like a clean/oil movement, or maybe a band resize?

I for one have no feelings either way about the US or N Korea, just keeping the balance.

As for Corgi, the more contributors the better, just in case anyone thought I was threadcrapping him.

Well, Corgi has an American flag at the bottom of his posts. You have a giant Korean soldier destroying the White House.

Yaaa... Not quite the same thing.

But it is a humorous fantasy!

Want to learn more?

Check out the pictures of movement shavings left floating around the movement, poorly oiled parts, and nasty looking screws. I still love Rolexes, though. And I have since day one. Just purchased a nice 5513 and, metal shavings in the movement or not, I'm still happy as a pig in [censored].

Walt Odet's Infamous Explorer 1 Review on TimeZone.com (he really blasts it on the 2nd page.)

Here are a couple more looks at Rolex movements. Both of these deal with the more common 3135.

http://people.timezone.com/mdisher/andrewb/3135/3135_1.htm

http://www.rolexreferencepage.com/yachtmasterreview.html

Dave

I had thought about this as well. I have an Apogaum Sub-Alike that has the Chinese movement installed. Although it keeps good time, I figured this is the best watch to 'tinker' with before doing anything 'big' to any of my other watches.

I was thinking about using a dremel to cut the feet off of the dial first. Then, place the dial on the replacement 2824 and use a thin marker to mark the dial feet location. After that's complete, I was going to use epoxy to glue the feet back onto the dial (JB-Weld, or some other epoxy). Once it's dry, install.

Should work fine. If I give it a go, I'll post the results.

Thanks for the reply, folks. I've been into watches, and specifically reps, for years. I've looked a number of times over that span and never could find a board like this for discussing replica's. I don't how I missed this site before, but I'm glad I found it.

Thanks again!

Dave

I have been collecting/trading/buying replica's since about 1985. I've seen every level of quality from quartz based, base-metal turds, to ETA based pieces that are tough to spot from a real one. It was only recently, however, that I found the 'high' level rep's that are considered 'swiss'.

My question is, what is the difference between a rep from, say, idealwatches and one from Wo-Mart? Is ideal just ripping folks off, or is there really such a huge difference in quality.

FWIW, I have bough three of the ~$1000.00 reps over the last 5 years or so with mixed results. The TT Sub had an awful bezel that looked more like brass than gold, while the Yacht has started to fade badly on the face (the color is bleached, the indices are off color and the red lettering is almost unreadable it's faded so bad.). However, the TT datejust (which was my first high-dollar rep) I bought back in 2001 still looks as good as the day I bought it and keeps perfect time.

So, is there a difference between a ~$1000.00 rep and a ~$150.00 rep?

Thanks,

Dave

BTW: I was reading in another thread concerning he water resistance of a sub rep. I can't speak in general, but with all three of my reps I've been in the pool, shower and the shore with all of them and never had a problem.

does anyone have any info on how to rotate the crystal? it needs rotating about 1mm anticlockwise. i realize i might sound like im nit picking but once i notice something been out of place it begins to niggle on me

also.... does anyone have a safe/easy method of taking the caseback off without the proper tools?

I don't know if you've done anything with this yet, but I would suggest that you NOT try to pop the crystal out of the case. The truth is, the cyclops is glued onto the crystal. Basically, they glued your cyclops on crooked. It CAN be removed and then re-glued. IIRC, a little heat on a flat razor blade first, then place the blade against the cyclops where it's in contact with the crystal. Once it's off, you can clean any of the remaining glue using rubbing alcohol.

Many watch supply shops on the internet sell the glue you need to re-attach the cyclops (Jules Borel is a good place to go). It is UV activated, so you put one drop of glue right over the date, place the cyclops over the date and position to where it's centered. Once that's complete, place the watch in direct sunlight or under a UV lamp. It only takes 5-10 minutes for it to cure.

Good luck!

Hi folks,

I bought a 'swiss' Yacht about two years ago. Over the course of time, the face has faded to resemble a color more like sand than platinum and the red type has faded to where it's almost not readable. Is there a place to have this redone, or someone who sells replacements?

Thanks,

Dave