Kime

Nice build... a very good amount of ageing... just about right

I like a good hands on build... Do you have any plans for ageing the parts? Dial, bezel, case?

I think its pretty easy to see that these are not great for vintage sub hands. In my opinion these are very close to the new HR hands, in particular the hour hand. I would avoid buying these for any vintage sub/Tudor build.

Ok well this explains a lot... fair enough... so as long as Clarks is never referred to as CWP we have no issues :-) lol

Nice post, some beautiful watches. I'm still confused as to who CWP is. !

Thanks for this info, we can't have enough references duplicated or not. Please don't refrain from posting becuase there might be a historical post, every new view point is a valid one !!! One thing that I feel is confusing currently is the repeated reference as Michael Young as CWP. Why is this? If we look at his web site it clearly states CLASSIC WATCH REPAIR. where as Clarks routinely refers to himself as CLARKS WATCH PARTS which is also routinely abbreviated to CWP. So when we have a post that includes references to Michael Young and Clarks at the same time it is hugely confusing. Can we agree to reference Michael Young as CWR or am I missing something?

Thanks guys and thanks for pinning this, doing that should help even more people out. Of course I don't own all hand sets that are out there, if people want to send me hand sets they don't want or send pics I will be happy to try and include them in this post. I know I don't have yuki vintage gilt hands here but I know they will not top the most accurate list so there is probably not much point posting them. I have no idea what ST hands are (yet another esoteric supplier, which just confirms why we need these references) but if anyone can point me to them I can decide if they are worth including.

Gilt Sub Hands... Most people put effort into their case, then the dial, the movement and the hands become an after thought. I have always thought that the dial and Mercedes hands are KEY elements and key "tells" on any vintage build budget or high end. There are so many myths surrounding what is correct, good, accepted in this world and I find learning this stuff as frustrating as everyone else, I have had to learn this stuff through trial and error (and error, and error). I get asked the question all the time when I post builds about what hands were used and read all the time "what hands are best" etc. etc. and finding a definitive answer is near on impossible because everyone says something different. I thought it was time to dispel some myths and help a whole mass of people out by showing these hands side by side. So here we go... Every hand set that I have, laid out next to each other, and all photographed to the same scale, next to a gen reference set (not my photo)... It should be noted that some of these have been aged and/or damaged, some are as delivered. Gen Hands I tried to make some general points about the gen hands, some rules that we want to get close to Points *1 - The second hand should have a tapered end The lollipop should have the same size of the base of the hour hand and be roughly twice the width of the minute hand *2 The walls of the hour hand shaft should be almost half the thickness of the lume plot The height of the shaft should be slightly SHORTER than the diameter of the Mercedes sign *3 - The diam of the Mercedes sign should be roughly a third bigger than the base *4 - The size of the Mercedes lume plot should be as big as the diameter of the hole (however the hole sizes differ, gen is 0.8 and ETA is 0.95mm) *5 - The length of the "point" should be more than half the diameter of the Mercedes sign and a third of the width at the base *6 - The distance from the hole to the start of the lume plot on the minute hand should be short *7 - As with the hour hand the walls of the minute hand shaft should be almost half the thickness of the lume plot *8 - The distance from the end of the lume plot to the start of the point should be small, approx 2x the width of the side wall There are more observations that can be made but these are the main ones. All Together The comparison candidates - Left to Right 1. Gen reference. It is important to say that this is a reference image and is not my photo. I have scaled this to an approximate same size as the other based on knowing the size of the hour hand hole (. compared to the other ETA (.95) 2. HR New - 2015 these are the replacement hands that HR currently have, the minute hand is not long for their oversized dial. However the hour hand is better than the older ones. 3. HR OLD - circa 2014. The minute hand is long for the HR oversized dial and the dimensions to a gen minute hand are almost perfect. A MUST for an oversized dial. (HR is apparently getting these back in stock but this is unconfirmed at time of writing) 3. Clarks Tudor Sub hands for ETA 2015 - These new hands are excellent and in fact probably the best of all for a very reasonable price $20 USD inc shipping 4. Tiger Concept (OnlineStoreHK). These are the clear looser, terrible in fact. Only buy these for the lollipop second hand if MY is out of stock. 5. Michael Young (Classic Watch Repair CWR) - An excellent set of hands that comes with 2 lollipop second hands, a gilt one and a white one. These hands have an excellent finish but the edges are not sharp and the lume job is terrible and hanging over the edge of the hands. At $65 + $28 Shipping these are the most expensive hands here and I would say, from a shape perspective, only slightly better than the $20 Clarks hands. It should also be noted that the hands shown are for a gen movement, not ETA. But MY used to stock these for ETA but he was out of stock when I asked. 6. Clarks Vintage Sub hands for 157x - I am including these because i have them, I struggled to broach these and ended up bending them. A good shape but now superseded by his Tudor Sub hands for ETA builds. Hour Hands Minute Hands Conclusion I hope it is clear to see that many of these hands are "wrong" not close to vintage sub hands AT ALL. The Tiger concept hands are in last place, however, these come with a lollipop second hand. The winners are Clarks and Michael Young if you don't want a lillipop second hand Clarks is the hands down winner. But it must be noted that by the time you buy a set of Clarks Tudor Sub hands and a set of Tiger's to get a lollipop second hand, you are basically at the same price as the MY hands (if he has them in ETA) An additional note must be made for HR "oversized" dials, for this dial there really is only 1 minute hand, the old HR hand as it will correctly reach the chapter ring on the dial as it should. PLEASE NOTE, I am talking solely about vintage early sub GILT hands here. By the time we get into 5513s particularly the silver hands and most definitely the later ones, the design of the hands has changed very slightly. Many of the gilt hands from the 5512 and early 5513 appear to be the same as the "6538" or "50-60s" era hands I am comparing, maybe these were old stock at the time?. But as the years move forward it is easy to see changes in particular the side walls of the hands get thicker, so if you are doing those builds this reference will not hold up. I hope this helps and means you don't have to buy all of the damned hands that I have bought Kime

Does anyone know if the Phong 6538 case takes a gen case back? or does anyone know of a display case back that will fit? I have seen plenty online for gen 1675s but none for 6538 and beyond that I don't know if Phongs case has gen thread specs.

Still looking great... nice strap as well, who is the maker?

Thanks for that source, I didn't know of that one. It will be a 58 so my serial no is good. ...also thanks cc, I will need to have a chat with you about this build :-)

If I am right the 6538 began manufacturing in 1956 until somewhere around 1961 and I want to verify the correct serial numbers before I commit. Ideally a 1958, I am currently thinking of 361269 but I know there are many differing views on where exactly the years fall some seem to say my chosen number would be 1957. What is the definite source, if there is one, for these serial numbers?

I would be massively greatfull if you can pass on which torx bit because I have tried every size, none fit and 3 different spine tools designed for gen Rolex tubes.

Thanks, I can believe they are either, I have tried 3 "gen spec" Rolex tube fitting spline tools and none fit. I would love a correct tool and have urged Athaya to update his design but I know he is busy on other projects at the moment. Knowing the correct tools for a gen I'm sure would help him on a redesign.

Those engravings are laughable... :-)

Is the tube wrench the same as the one for the Athaya tube, as I have been yet to find one that fits his tube.

Can someone help me out, I always struggle to identify a gen fat font insert (especially this fat) and buying a dud keeps putting me off from giving over a shed load of money on one. Can someone point out what exactly separates these from the fakes?

Very hard to say from those pictures... but on these alone it does not look genuine, the teeth look too shallow and not angled enough (similar to a clarks) but as I said these pictures are not great. Side on macro images are the best to tell the angles involved.

I ideally of course you need to file the end of the endlink to make it slightly shorter, bending spring bars is not a good idea.

I used an ingod dial for a budget 6542, also a "press fit" and it was easy enough to epoxy on some dial feet... a bit of a pain as far as lining up is concerned but not too bad.

That is poor (as has been said) tbh yuki's stuff is very very patchy at best especially their cases. Do they not look at ANY of the originals before they spend a lot of money on machining? The bezel is completely wrong, insert and bezel, the case back should be bubbleback and that case back engraving... what were they thinking? Although saying that the dial is probably acceptable considering no one else seems to sell one at the moment. If you need to know what a real bezel should look like, look no further than this beauty that has just gone on sale for 39k http://www.hqmilton.com/watches/1958-rolex-gmt-6542-glossy-gilt-chapter-ring-with-bakelite-bezel

lol

I checked a cartel rep this week, so 100% rep, it has the bevelled under edge but not the very fine grain, although still better than the other rep ring I have. So the bevel alone is not good enough to distinguish a rep from a gen unfortunately. Knowing that you have really bought a gen retaining ring is pretty damn hard.

The dial is not bad, the case on the other hand... get your files out Yuki have also just listed a 1675 caseset so maybe that is worth a look?

Yep ditto, a quick fix for someone with experience. Setting 4 hands can be a real pita and a fairly skilled job, or at least it needs someone with good experience, so I'm surprised this doesn't happen to more reps.