jmt

Ditto

+1

The pricing dynamic of vintage Rolex is interesting, but it makes sense; so many of the sports models had quickly escalated up in price and value; certain specific pieces had some very sharp increases that seemed to compound on an almost daily basis. Certain models like the 1675, 16750, 5513 were late to the party... I suspect that many who wanted in on the investment phenominon saw these options as their foot in the door, hence pushing prices up to current levels as a result. Meanwhile, pieces like the 6263/5's and some of the divers have started coming back down in correction (though the top of the top still command premium prices).

Interesting, cause it wasn't that long ago that everyone (both here and gen fora) were astounded to bear witness to the first $25k DRSD; these days, those prices have exceeded that threshold far beyond, yet I've seen some pieces (full package as well) start to stall out in the $40k range.

Then add in the curent economic strains....

I still maintain that a good deal and value is likely to be had at an IWJG show... Folks are looking to liquidate... If you wait until the last or second to last day of the show (while dealers are packing up), you can probably strike a good last minute deal...

Good note. The DRSD comment is spot on because of the rareity of the dials. These matte 16750s are NOT that rare, but they were only made for 3 years (i think... maybe 2)... so they are not all that common either...I suspect they will be in good demand going forward (especially considering their beauty).

Unbeatable, as usual, Freddy. Awesome.

OK, been digging around, and here's what I have found that's available in a 16750 matte dial. I will post the pics and get reactions, and then I will let you know what they are asking for them...

First one, you've seen above at the top of the post.

Second one:

Third one:

Fourth:

The first comes with service papers only; the second and third with punched papers, box, etc.; the last one with no papers

What do you guys think? Can you guess the asking prices?

So, here are the prices:

#1-- RSC papers, $7k

#2-- box, punched papers-- $8700

#3-- box, papers-- $10,500

#5-- no papers-- $5300

Seem a few others as well, and these are market asking prices. $7k is a very common rate for a nice one with RSC papers...from the looks of things, $8700 seems a decent deal...

Ultimately, the value of papers relative to the watch depends on which model you are dealing with. The higher the collectibility/value/demand for the item, the more important it becomes to have a full, complete package (i.e. box, papers, hang tags, calendar, etc. PLUS RSC papers for service history). And it also depends on the brand as well; with Rolex, having this provenance is critical from a collector's/investor's standpoint. I've seen some examples differ 30%+ in price with or without these items. For brands such as Patek, it's a little less important to have the original papers as they can issue an extract from the archives if you send in the watch.

The thing with RSC papers alone is that it's not exactly what collectors consider to be a reflection on provenance. Granted, it proves that a watch has been in and out of a Service Center and has received a clean bill of health; however, it does not guarantee that a watch has been tampered with after the service has been done. Case in point- RSC's have stopped documenting exotic dialed watches as it has become common place for unscrupulous individuals to obtain paperwork confirming the presence of a certain dial type (i.e. red sub, DRSD, Newman, etc) and to then swap dials with a repaint or aftermarket dial and sell as original; the ramifications coming back to the RSC as a liability is something that Rolex wanted to wash it's hands of; as they had provided statement in writing of a certain dial which sells at a premium to be authentic it holds them accountable. Also, it has been known that some of the service centers were servicing watches with non-original dials as well, and simply letting them pass through. So, in this sense, the RSC paperwork is not what one considers definitive and why some collectors tend to pass on pieces that come only with RSC papers.

That helps explain the $1700 - $3500 difference in prices I am seeing...

It always helps (when selling a gen watch) if you have the original paperwork that goes with the watch. For a rep, it is only useful if you want to include them in a display, as some members do. I would not recommend using papers in an effort to try to pan-off a non-gen watch as a gen.

Just to be totally clear, I am asking this as a guy in the market for a gen...I have no interest in papers or boxes for my reps, although I know others do for the reasons you suggest...

Title says it, basically.... what do you guys think the relative value of these two types of 'papers' are?

Four it is for me. Three and Four both have the 5.3mm crown and they both look good - I#d base the opinion on the pirce between the two. No B&P is okay if you wear it - it's not okay if you are looking at it as an investment.

OK, so I still won't reveal the prices yet, but I should tell you guys that #4 is slightly more than 2x the price of #3.

3 is in fact the most expensive and 4 the least.

Change anyone's opinion?

Funny, my fave is #2. I know the pepsi insert is the more classic, but I don't love it... Plus, I really like the look of that yellow patina. Hands aren't all original though... at least not by the look of the seconds hand.

OK, been digging around, and here's what I have found that's available in a 16750 matte dial. I will post the pics and get reactions, and then I will let you know what they are asking for them...

First one, you've seen above at the top of the post.

Second one:

Third one:

Fourth:

The first comes with service papers only; the second and third with punched papers, box, etc.; the last one with no papers

What do you guys think? Can you guess the asking prices?

I like to charge up the lume on a dive watch, make sure the crown is screwed in, line up the pearl with the minute hand, then hop in the shower...

in the dark! That way the watch is in its "natural habitat." I can't believe I do this, but you should try it, it's kind of fun, tracking (shower) time. What's the geekiest WIS thing you do/have done?

I gotta say, throw in a couple of chickens and Sarah Palen, and you have a truly one of a kind, perverted WIS experience!

Guys, one last question (ok, not LAST!)...

This deal is 7k. It is clean and nice, but has the wrong bracelet and only RSC papers

I have another 16750. It's $8700. Its a little less beautiful, but still totally original with a nice patina, corrent bracelet, and punched papers.

So, my question for those who know far more than I do... are papers and a bracelet worth $1700?

Thanks for all your help, guys!

Thanks for the great replies, guys! Confirms what I wanted to do anyway... now to pull the trigger...

Ahhh... Well, for one, it's an InterWatches watch for sale. Everything from them is pricey. Also... The watch posted looks like a 1675; I only see an 'OYSTER PERPETUAL' under Rolex (16750's have OYSTER PERPETUAL DATE).

$7k definitely seems high for a 16750.

Edit: Interestingly enough, I looked through some scans of early 16750's and those do indeed reflect 'OYSTER PERPEUTUAL' only; no DATE.

Did you ever try barganing with InterWatches? Not sure how to do that given the call center environment...

I have done a lot of research about the GMT lately. Finding a 100% original 1675 is not easy... and definitely not below $5K. If the watch is 100% original and has full paperwork, today's prices are at least in the $7K range... if not above that.

I'm still kicking myself for not buying a 1675 three years ago, when the prices were still very low. Nanuq's timing was perfect.

Not sure about 16750, but I believe they're in the same price range. Depending on the condition and accessories.

Yeah, I completely agree... that Ferrari/Hyundai comparison was silly. Rolex movements aren't considerably better than ETA's, and Tudor has a Rolex case. These Snowflakes are becoming highly collectible. But yeah, I would still get the GMT before the prices become utterly ridiculous (and all indicators are saying they will).

Thanks a ton, BT... that and Nanuq and FxrAndy's comments make me feel a lot better about the price on this beauty!

EDIT: But, BT, if the watch comes only with RSC papers, how does that change your value assessment?

Is this a piece to wear? Or to put away?

GMT's have been slowly on the rise; if you're going to go for one, I'd personally consider a 16750, as the quick set date is something you'll come to appreciate quickly. Of the several 1570's I've dealt with, the slow set date has always left a bad taste in my mouth. That is, unless you plan on wearing the watch on a daily basis, to which case keeping the date up to current isn't much of an issue; you'll only have to deal with setting the date on 30 day calendar months

If you're after a Tudor Snowflake, go for an M.N. 7016 or 7021 with Military papers. If you're after a piece to simply wear, I think a 9411 is a nice way to go. If you can bump your price range up a bit, a 7928 can be within obtainable range.

The one problem with a lot of vintage pieces is that they're not always correct. Sometimes you'll have some wonky parts fitted or some hackneyed fix performed.

Thanks, Ubi. I'll likely wear it-- I wear them all sometimes--

I really love the GMT-- It's a 16750. If I post more pics, can you help me figure out how correct it is? Seems pricey to me... ~7k.

Playing around with my new digital point-and-shoot, and figured what better subject than a pair of Bonds!

...Dr. No, meet Mr. Goldfinger

That is too cool, JoJo.

that's easy -- gmt wins hands down in my book

deltatahoe

Forgot to ask guys, what would you think is a fair price for either?

Hi. For a bunch of reasons, I am having a 'I am done with reps day...' OK, I'm not done, but it's put me of the mind to grab a special gen. So, I know what I like and have been doing some searching. Which of these two would you choose?

or

Yes it is.

It IS awesome news! Now, I hope (I think) you are in a contested state...so at least you can feel like your vote matters. Have fun in that voting line!

Won't it need all new hands?

Yep. Hard part will be the green GMT hand. May get the red and try to paint them...

That's not it either.

But if I could give you a pat on the back, you'd need surgery afterward.

Edit: P.S. That is not a bad thing.

Not to be a stick in the mud, but a square has 4 corners. Period.

Hey there sunshine... Allow me to chime in and offer to assist in funding your gen purchase (YOU KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT)...

There are a couple watches I have been eyeing locally (for both of us).

One is an N serial Explorer II white dial with box and papers for $3500.

And a Z serial number Explorer II black dial with box and reg card for $3900.

Both are local, and still for sale as of this afternoon.

If interested in either, let me know and I will point you in the right direction. Im also sure offers would be accepted on either.

I'd get (well, I did get) a Bucherer Patravi Chrono. Looks great on a strap or bracelet, top quality, and rare. And, not really repped. Chrono may be a bit out of your range, but not if you can find one pre-owned. T knows what I am talking about.

Here it is :

It's not the watch I ordered. Since there was obviously a mix up, and Chris offers non-MBK vintage Sea Dwellers as well, I just wanted to make sure I at least got an MBK watch. I really don't want to go through the hassel of sending the watch back, and can live with the SRSD versus DRSD.

That makes sense.

Thanks!

Just wondering, tr4driver, why were you soooo suspicious?

Damn, that is a great looking watch Chad.

Enjoy it

Yeah, it is. Sinn makes a great watch for the price.

I think I am going to grab one with an asian movement and try to swap in a 2893-2. That is, unless someone wants to sell me a dead one even cheaper than the asian...