Timelord

Well said! That nails it head on! The same would apply with most of the "all sell and no tell " commercial world! I remember a similar example used in commerce school which are the basic essential ingredients lubricating marketing and capitalism!

Thanks for the piece of information! The problem is that some supply houses have old stock which are sealed in these silver bags and there is no indication as to the jewel count of the movement unless one opens the packet to be sure! Unless the older 17 jewel versions have different packaging, then this would confirm it!! The other problem is that that swatch/ eta group who sell these movements are notoriously unhelpful in directing you to even getting close to an answer or having the courtesy in answering what to the catalogue number on the packet suggests!

True! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, therefore it is all depends upon a persons tastes!

Yes exactly what I was referring to! What do those codes mean on the white label? How do you know it is a 25 J or 17 J without opening the packet? A local here has the following codes RO3648852 on some of his 2836-2 followed by 8.11 and 1P! How can one tell what type of movement is in it without opening it? I cant make him an offer as I don't know what is inside it

Yes All good! For a moment I thought I was reading a typical reply one would normally see on the. watchuseek forum Yep, more like a miracle maker! Thank goodness!

Ehhhh?... What language are you used to talking in? What is this 20 years time bull€+^&.? Are you reading the right post??

Great information ! Thanks ! The 8 less jewels in the 17 jewel mechanism would mean that there are less jewels in the auto wind assembly! I never really noticed. I too prefer the 25 J over the 17 J version, but if buying new sealed from the packet it is usually impossible to tell as they never say how many jewels are in the mechanisms!

How many of you ever came across to a sealed eta packet containing a new 2836-2 but no other information whether it is the 17 jewel or the 25 jewel version of it ? Is there a code on the packet that would give his information? The best would be to open them but then it is too late if it is the wrong one! Would the 17 jewel version be less inferior to the 25 jewel one due to less jewel count?

That is very eloquent and useful! Thanks is the best word I can find! One thing puzzles me is that a stepped crystal as with the genuine crystals must have some kind of bezel or retaining ring to hold them in place!! Unless mine was replaced with a different type and held by sealant which makes sens as to why I lost it in the first place I take your advice on the detergent method to clean as best as possible under the bezel. I tried he razor blade but just scratched the top side instead! An absolute pain to come off! Would yours be for the f series or M series?

I recently pulled out my prized noobmariner F520117 to wear as I like to rotate my watches every now & then. Upon returning home I noticed my crystal was missing!! Luckily I was wearing a short sleeve polo shirt and the hands were intact!, I looked all over and no sign of it! I tried the crystals from some of my silix cases and cartel cases but they all seem to be wrong size! Has anyone ever replaced one and if so, where is it possible to source one? also I tried to remove the bezel to clean any grime underneath it with no luck! How does one go about this? am having a bad day! Thanks for any feedback!

Yes, that is exactly what I meant!!!!. Yet, I would still be hesitant of departing with the 4-5 digit asking prices that not just milsubs demand but most vintage rolex models in general. I believe Automatico (correct me if I am wrong! ) hit the nail right on the head regarding this topic many moons ago!!! My main concern is; with all the state of the art evolving technology and with how cloning is becoming a closely perfected science, so too is cloning of most technological pieces!!!. I wonder how much of these collectible items which come with high prices are truly what they claim to be and how much of it's content is truly original ( if any) and how much is not? Just yesterday, I was lurking on the http://www.vintagerolexforum.com sales section and was quite shocked with how an honest seller was skinned on a White gold day date which sent me in a tail spin!!!!!. check this out ; https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vintagerolexforum/fs-rolex-1803-white-gold-with-long-story-still-ava-t251327.html?sid=faa7f728084cd687de8f02865933f22a In the days when I owned genuine rolex models, I had a few of these 1803 Day dates myself and makes me wonder if any of mine were in this category. Only because I regret selling all of mine to make way for health expenses I would still like to own just one genuine one for old times sake, if the opportunity was feasible !! I would never have been able to tell what was the giveaway in the above white gold model referenced in the sales section. Yet with all the time I have been here and learnt a lot from you guys ( most grateful to say the least !!!) I would still be burnt if I went along with that transaction unless the seller had not been transparent in his declaration. Until wiser, I stick to replicas regardless of how much the purists see me as a fake!!

I know this subject has been raised countless times; both on this forum, the VRF forum and other areas of discussion!! I recently got into a discussion when I was asked by my bank manager if my milsub replica was real or not and obviously with the type of car I drive and house I live in, anyone that knows more about these rare pieces would know it isn't, regardless if it was real or not ( as one could have inherited it from the original owner for example) My reply was that I had better things to do with my money. He went on to say that if he won the lottery it would be the first item he would buy!!! But if money was not an option and you had the possibility to buy one, would you at the 5 digit premiums they ask on today's market? Silly question - maybe? but what are your thoughts!! Just curious!!

I know this subject has been raised countless times; both on this forum, the VRF forum and other areas of discussion!! I recently got into a discussion when I was asked by my bank manager if my milsub replica was real or not and obviously with the type of car I drive and house I live in, anyone that knows more about these rare pieces would know it isn't, regardless if it was real or not ( as one could have inherited it from the original owner for example) My reply was that I had better things to do with my money. He went on to say that if he won the lottery it would be the first item he would buy!!! But if money was not an option and you had the possibility to buy one, would you at the 5 digit premiums they ask on today's market? Silly question - maybe? but what are your thoughts!! Just curious!!

Good question! i can only share with you my experiences I had with the 2836-2 which is basically the one which has the day wheel in addition to the date wheel with some small other differences. Let me say that I have purchased from three different sellers where they ranged between 60 and 100 dollars US. I did not find any difference in terms of quality . In fact, one seller that sold between the 2 different high and low price ranges happened to be the same seller (with different identities) as I received the same quality movement from the same name and address but at different prices! In my opinion, all I can say is that if you are able to service your own movement, then buy a pre owned one for circa US60 and you should be ok. With the clones I had all sorts of problems especially with the keyless works not working well and upon setting the yoke, then positioning the parts, they just kept falling out of place where I even had the cover plate and yoke snapping when trying to set them into place. Upon replacing them from a genuine, they did not mesh and there was so much stretch. On the 100 dollar movement, when I removed the screw for the cover plate spring , the head of the screw broke in half. On my cheaper clone, the automatic assembly seemed to be welded onto the main part of the watch as the screws just would not unscrew!! I wanted to service it myself but instead I stripped the heads of the the screws and believe me I have pulled apart well over a dozen of them without problems. The other clone, just stopped every 3 hours and when I messaged the seller about it, his reply was that I should oil the movement. In other words, it needed a service which was not mentioned in his description! In the end, it use have costed me the same as getting a genuine new one without tags.. Two of the three were almost dry without lubrication. This is just my opinion according to my experiences. As the Americans say, "Strike 3 and your out"!!. Hope this helps you have a better experience with your clones!

It is only a matter of time if one isn't out there just yet. It all comes down to cost and profit. $600 is still a good price for what t actually is and making a knock off that is cheaper is really the issue. Most items that are made in Europe would probably already use parts made in China and just assembled there! Speaking of coffee, I grew up in a neighbourhood consisting mostly of Neapolitan families or from around those regions! One family that owned a cafe had one of those machines when they were still considered a novelty. One thing I noticed was that Gennaro the owner of the cafe never drank coffee from it whenever we visited them as friends at the back of the cafe! I always saw that he would use the old aluminium/ stainless steel perculator that was octahedral in shape to make his own coffee to drink. I questioned him about it and his response was that coffee tasted better from the percolator and the espresso machine was meant to serve as a substitute for big commercial turnover, otherwise you would be washing the percolator most of he day and a cup of coffee would cost 5 times more because of the time involved. He then proved it to me and made me a cup from both of them using the same ground coffee and just as a flower that blossoms in spring, he was 100% correct,. He made me guess which was which! BTW, as this forum is about watches, I might add that he wore an omega Seamaster from the 1950's

All I can say is that this has been a great thread!! I could not add anything close to what others haven't already done! Thoroughly enjoyed it as it as been entertaining as well as educational as most threads are on this forum. This filled a large gap of ignorance in my understanding of this particular build., almost enticing me to take up one of these projects myself! As for winter, being a good title for this post, it is one of the cosiest times of the year to fulfil indoor activities such as these ones, which otherwise would always be delayed! Thanks for sharing and enjoy to good Health!

It is actually a nipple dial when you look into it closely. I am not sure if we are going beyond the scope of what is to be discussed in the replica forums as these are topics that are more likely to be discussed in the genuine forums , but I always welcome any information that can educate us in both fields. When I first saw that image around 1993, I sighed a breathe of relief, but something just did not mesh! If you look closely, it appears to be assembled from two genuine watches where the dial and hands could have come from a yellow gold 1680/8 and the bezel from a Tudor snowflake In those days parts and spares were available like new tyres for a car. .Even today, you could probably do it where you would be short of a Tudor insert I have seen genuine original pre owned nipple dials advertised on ebay for high premiums but when added to an ordinary stainless steel submariner to create something more unique, you are going to easily double your returns. Yes genuine! But is it exclusive for a particular line, I am not entirely convinced!

There has been a lot of discussion relating to the subject of a blue dial submariner in stainless steel on various forums in the last 20 years. As it turns out the current available evidence trends to converge to "officially NO". In the days when the market was a little more open where companies such as Cartier, Serpico and Laino, the British defence force ( with their Milsub), Comex etc were licensed by Rolex to create and have variations of the mainstream models, to suit their purpose, it is highly likely that some limited number of blue dialed versions were created for the Asian market as discussed in https://www.rolexforums.com/showpost.php?p=7453782&postcount=10 there is also a more modern company Branford? (If I stand to be corrected) that is making variations of the current model but possibly as customised versions!

I don't think it makes much of a difference! Years ago I worked as a security guard for a large reputable company which was also monitoring places where fine art was held. In one contract where we looked after the malls of high brand products,where there were several of us on duty and a large robbery had occurred just under our nose which could have only performed by ghosts! A large safe was ripped out of a stone wall holding an undisclosed value of precious stones! How it was done still puzzles me today! After months of investigations and all being under suspicion, it was concluded that it was an inside job! As there is no such thing as a perfect crime this cold case was later solved some 12 years later and in fact turned out to be exactly an inside job! That is all the information we were privileged with! An Italian friend once said to me that in his town there is an old saying which says" chi ti sappia ti apri" translating to mean " whoever knows you- opens you!" As for the theft in horology, this is consistent with the timing of when the swatch group have closed their doors to independents, resulting with the side effect that spares are now rares which will increase this sort of behaviour for those stopping at nothing to fulfil a need or an agenda! I also believe from the OP that it is someone of the trade! Sad but true!

Now that is "un grand opera d'arte"! That combines both features which I saw in two separate genuine submariner s that sold for phenomenal prices! Imagine finding a genuine like this??!! On the other hand who cares about the genuine when something like this is close to unique and perhaps has had more work and attention than the genuine for one tenth of the price. It is the same tiramisu made from the same ingredients but by different chefs from the same cooking school! Thank you for sharing this photo! Enjoy in buona salute!!

I do not know how to say it, but....... . I like it!!! somehow that touch of blue just highlights it? That is just my opinion and I may be in the minority here. If it were a little more faded being more Cielo celeste, then it is very attractive!! On two occasions I have seen two vintage submariners where one had a tropical dial which had turned blue and it was awesome!! another time I saw one with a faded insert almost bright celeste and it was real eye candy!

Have come late here! my very best wishes in your successful outcome with whatever treatment option you go with! As others have said better than what I could ever say, you will see this as a long distant memory once it is all over and you will be doing better and better with each day that passes! As I said to my late mother before she had open heart surgery " may the force be with you" and she lived for over 25 years more, passing away at 76 from dementia!

I believe so! But Riff-raff is no riff-raff!! He is a great guy and I have dealt with him more than once! His merchandise is quite affordable and has quite a range of stock! Pity he does not have the same for the older submariner style cases nor the same for omega especially the crown& tubes!

Gentlemen, without overlooking the genius skills of others.here, what would the forum be without you guys?? If every area of the world was like this forum, the world would be an astronomically better place!! No poverty, no wars and perhaps even less diseases just to mention a few!! Many thanks ! It gives me somewhere to turn!

It was advertised as unused and the crown showed no signs of wear apart from the defect! To get them is one problem but to get a defective one makes the second problem! You are right, if they are found used then there would be no logical reason to see them off a watch! Finding them in capsule packs is ultimately rare and also very expensive often even more so than the watch itself A faulty internal clutch says it ALL!!