Brightight

Guys we in the Admin team believe that the RG playpen is yours to do as you wish, this however is in the RWG General Discussion section so please no flame wars here thank you.

Ken

Agreed. And apologies for getting involved. Thanks Ken.

Wonderful thing hindsight.

Over and out, roger, wilco.

and I'm sure you have facts (you know who sold what to whom in what condition, sales details, what the seller knew at the time of the sale, what was disclosed, what was not disclosed, etc.) to back up everything you are insinuating here and it's not just some inflammatory remark based on what you think/hope has happened because you have some unresolved issues with someone.

The RG thing was before my time however reading from the outside a lot of the accusations being thrown around appear to be more related to bruised egos than hard facts.

I find it amusing that we have a scammer (VDB) that sold rep parts as gen and a lot of people blame the buyers just because they don't like them. Yes, I'd say it's childish.

No I don't have facts and figures, but I do know there was a VDB watch raffled off just before this whole thing blew up. I have no unresolved issues but I'm, to use your phrase, "reading from the outside" as are many others and it appears VDB watches changed hands after the true facts were known to the sellers. If this is not the case, it would be reasonable for them to say so rather than leaving others to speculate. It appears the truth about VDB has been known for a long time.

The RG Vintage thing was nothing to do with bruised egos, more to do with a takeover attempt by some people. Fortunately the membership wouldn't stand for it and the mods put a stop to it, subsequently leading to the formation of W-C. I'm sure if you had been there at the time, you'd have taken a different view. VDB were made moderators of the Vintage Forum which they then used as their own private Sales Forum, other modders were belittled and criticised by them and their supporters and it was made clear that the only pictures suitable for the Vintage Forum were those of VDB creations as nothing else was 'true' vintage. Joe expressed this conceit to me just the other day stating that "throwing acid on a dial or leaving underwater for a while or throwing a case and a crystal in a bag with rocks doesnt make it vintage." whereas clearly A1 Sauce and rusty movements do make it vintage......................

Nobody is blaming the buyers of anything other than being naive in the extreme and believing what they were told. Somebody saying something is a gen part doesn't make it so. Nor is anyone downplaying the fact that a huge scam has taken place.

I agree. The whole VDB shady practices issue was raised by former customers. Instead of keeping the discussion around the questionable practices of a modder that produces and misrepresents overpriced low quality watches some folks decided to bring personal views on a number of upstanding folks to light.

It's sad that we can't have a mature discussion around serious matters without people trying to stir the pot with personal vendettas.

Forget about the A1 sauce, the rusty builds, etc. There are some serious accusations of VDB selling low quality rep parts as genuine vintage parts. That's the same kind of stealing that tarnished the reputation of Sylar/Julio at RG and thankfully and rightfully the RG staff removed him for such transgressions.

This discussion should be around what to do with a modder that engages in this kind of behavior and not baseless accusations and insinuations that serve no real purpose.

The discussion should be about whatever people want it to be. And it will be.

It is also about people who almost destroyed the RG Vintage Section over their blind adherence to VDB, and in doing so upset a lot of people and caused a good deal of bitterness, now getting their just deserts. Childish perhaps, but it's only human to get some pleasure from this.

The A1 sauce and the rusty builds, etc, are just as important as the fake parts sold as gen and 1:1 cases which are nowhere near, they are all part of the con and all totally unacceptable.

Also just as important is the case of those who, knowing that VDB were not what they were reputed to be, sold on their VDB watches to other members without disclosing the flaws and before making public their concerns. This is not what any of the forums are or should be about.. This of course is not everyone who sold a VDB, and I believe that one or two sold them on at a big loss knowing the quality was not acceptable, and good on them for being honest at their cost..

just read the last part but also the post of vintage pam(RG) where he says he has never bought a fake part represented as gen....overall it's sad this is happening

Yeah I just read that too, but it flies in the face of what respected people have said in the W-C thread. Very sad for the people who bought into the fairy tale.

they still are awesome watches, and to source the parts....cortebert 616 at $300, angelus sf240 I have seen for $500-$3000, time putting everything together ect.

repparts as gen ...? will wait and hear all of the story....30 pages upto now

Awesome watches held together with glue and plastic movement holders, misrepresented movements and parts,1:1 cases which aren't, shoddy work, A1 Steak Sauce? The Emperor's new clothes are shown up for what they are. Overpriced reps sold by scammers. There must be a lot of people waking up today to the 'investment value' of their VDB watches being virtually nil.

Usual suspects?? I dont think so. People are just sharing there experence with this rude unprofessional dealer. I have seen many times how this guy responds to members,totally unexceptable. He would not last a day here. RWG has more respect for It's members than some other rep communitys.

Oh but I do think so. Try reading the Robert bashing threads on other forums in the past and the same people keep showing up. One at least was actually banned from another forum for personal attacks on this dealer and has a chip on his shoulder so big it's the whole potato. It's amazing how many fragile egos there are on these forums. Sure Robert is not for everyone, you take him as he is on his terms (for which there are good reasons) or stay away, but the suggestion that other 'rep communities' have less respect for their members is frankly ludicrous, at least Robert hasn't pulled stunts like Eurotimez and WM9...............................

Consider - Robert clearly has more satisfied than dissatisfied customers or he'd go out of business. And as Watchmeister says, he's not here to defend himself, so the attacks are even more cowardly and one sided.

Wow! Not another Robert bashing thread? And full of the usual suspects........................

It's a damn sight easier to get the correct tool and a few spare springs from Ofrei............

I wouldn't advise touching it as you have no experience as yet. Leave it to Reg to sort out. There are a number of possible causes from a loose hand to a movement fault.

So you "threw down" and "pulled the trigger". Is that anything similar to "I bought"? Such misuse of the english language makes me want to "throw up" and "pull the trigger" on perpetrators of such abominations. Call me old fashioned............................

This is already on RWG1. RG next................................

Yes 28.5mm would do the trick, the smaller ones leave a gap round the rehaut.

I have a Sea Dweller case in which I've been asked to fit a new dial. However the two SD dials I have are approx 26.51mm diameter and don't fit the case. A Sub dial which fits the case is 29.02mm. I guess these are different rep versions, but which is which as I obviously need to obtain a 29mm dial for this case? Does anyone have any info?

Lovely job, your Dad will love it! Welcome to the DJ franken club

Actually Cousins UK does have the jeweled and non jeweled on their web site. I just ordered several of the non-jeweled and remember seeing them. They were something like 3x the cost of the non-jeweled ones.

But I'm too lazy to go look them up again.

You're right! I usually work from the parts list, which only shows part 1530. But I see Cousins list this plus a 1530.5 which is with jewels. Don't know how many times I've looked at that listing and never noticed it! Getting old is a b*gger

That has been my experience, as well. (Having serviced many copies and gens) In fact, the Asian made copy has jewels on both ends of the shaft. I have replaced many clone parts with gen-ETA parts with no problems. The winding pinion, the seconds shaft and gear, even the reversers. No problems. The ETA reversers seem to fix the sticking reverser problem with the clones. That being said, I ordered a balance complete for a clone and could not install it. The post on the hairspring that clips into the stud on the beat regulator is a hair larger and I could not make it fit. Most parts, though, seem to be the same.

BTW...I have also, recently, ordered gen ETA reversers and they did not have a jeweled mounting between the gears of the reverser.

You can replace the entire Balance and bridge gen to clone without problems. I have also used the gen 4th (seconds) gear, escapement wheel and mainspring, among others, on the clones.

I must admit I haven't seen the reversers with internal jewels either, Cousins UK certainly don't offer a choice but it figures the high grade movements will have this sort of improvement.

One of the problems with this whole subject is the Chinese are modding things all the time. The Zigmeister's post is now out of date in quite a few respects, the bridges for example now appear interchangeable with the gen with the pegs on the bridges, not the mainplate. Currently the only obvious difference is the shock spring.

I doubt you'd ever see the jeweled version of the reversing gear in a rep (last picture). They are considerably more expensive than non jeweled ones.

Every clone 2836-2 I've stripped has had the jewelled reversing gear pivots. Most have also had the 8 hole reversing gear. Neither should be considered a tell. This is a recent clone (received making a noise and sent to me for repair. A good example of Chinese QC!), note the jewels and the reversing gear holes. the only tell is the shock spring (it's not clear in the pic that there is only one groove, but the springs are different between Novodiac and clone -

This is the Novodiac spring, similar but different -

So Bergeon, AF and such manufacturers make bezel removers which operate evenly all round the bezel to avoid the bezel getting damaged or bent? How stupid are they when you can 'pop it off' with a knife.................

Not something I'll be trying.

Great write up, very interesting, thanks for posting.

2836 is not a true GMT movement...that is a basterdized modification made by REP manufacturers...

no doubt the 2836 is a very reliable movement, but in fit and finish cannot be compared to a 2893 movement....the 2893-2 is a true GMT movement designed by ETA and the 24 hand skips hour to hour as a true GMT hand should.

Also, the finer quality finish of the 2893-2 compared to the 2836/2824 is noticeable when you wind a 2893/2892....it feels closer to winding feel of a Rolex movement.

The main problem is the 2893 being much thinner than 2836....so it's no where near a direct swap.

Yes I understand the 2893 is designed to have an add on GMT function (in the 2893-2. the -1 and -3 are not GMT) whereas the 2836 GMT is a rep mod based as far as I can see on the 2893-2. I cannot see any mechanism in the 2893-2 to allow the 24 hour hand to skip. And there is no getting away from the fact it is too thin for the available cases though it is a higher quality movement undoubtedly.

My understanding is the 2893 uses a very similar GMT setup to the 2836 so I'm not sure what is meant by a proper GMT movement or adjusting by the hour, Take a look at the mechanism here - http://www.cousinsuk...A2893-1,2,3.pdf - no sign of any fancy gearing,the parts look very similar to a clone 2836 GMT I had stripped down on the bench last week.

Oh and based on recent experience with Yuki over an Explorer I case, dial and bracelet, I would give Yuki a wide berth, everything had to go back in the end as the case was not compatible with gen parts and the dial was frankly poor. The bracelet had 'Rolex' upside down on the clasp. What a load of crap frankly.

Interesting topic. There must be a measure of status goes with wearing a Rolex, but if you are of a certain status, and old enough, I am certainly old enough, no-one blinks an eyelid. I wear frankens instead of gens because I'm a cheapskate, the same reason I buy my Mercedes second hand (someone else can carry the biggest depreciation hit and any teething problems). I am not at all into the new model Rolexes with saphire crystals, etc, give me the good old fashioned organic feel of an acrylic crystal. I tend to wear the same watch day in, day out, and for the past 18 months or so have worn nothing but my two franken DJs (case serials date to 1978 and 1984) which take turns of around three months each. I actually feel very comfortable with these as I feel I am not trying to make a statement, I just love the classic DJ look, the reliability and good timekeeping of a properly serviced swiss ETA, but no doubt a psychiatrist would find some deep dark reason allied to sexual deprivation or the like to show I'm just a fake person. I do however see a progression, so far from rep to modded rep to franken and I start to hear the call of the gen, so no doubt that will be my next move if I can overcome my scottish mean streak and break through the cobwebs on my wallet!

I would add that Rolex has always been my grail watch, I came very close to buying a used gen Sub in the 70's but my then girlfriend persuaded me to use the money to get a Seiko diver and a new camera............. On such things are our destinies shaped

Nothing a Cape Cod cloth wouldn't fix.............

SOLUTION: buy just the case set and get a factory fresh movement, did this with my 2 16610 subs, got my 2836 for $100, incabloc and keeps +2/day

2836's costing $100 factory fresh and keeping +2/day - would you mind sharing your source, I could do with a few of those?