Brightight

Agreed. And apologies for getting involved. Thanks Ken.

Wonderful thing hindsight. Over and out, roger, wilco.

No I don't have facts and figures, but I do know there was a VDB watch raffled off just before this whole thing blew up. I have no unresolved issues but I'm, to use your phrase, "reading from the outside" as are many others and it appears VDB watches changed hands after the true facts were known to the sellers. If this is not the case, it would be reasonable for them to say so rather than leaving others to speculate. It appears the truth about VDB has been known for a long time. The RG Vintage thing was nothing to do with bruised egos, more to do with a takeover attempt by some people. Fortunately the membership wouldn't stand for it and the mods put a stop to it, subsequently leading to the formation of W-C. I'm sure if you had been there at the time, you'd have taken a different view. VDB were made moderators of the Vintage Forum which they then used as their own private Sales Forum, other modders were belittled and criticised by them and their supporters and it was made clear that the only pictures suitable for the Vintage Forum were those of VDB creations as nothing else was 'true' vintage. Joe expressed this conceit to me just the other day stating that "throwing acid on a dial or leaving underwater for a while or throwing a case and a crystal in a bag with rocks doesnt make it vintage." whereas clearly A1 Sauce and rusty movements do make it vintage...................... Nobody is blaming the buyers of anything other than being naive in the extreme and believing what they were told. Somebody saying something is a gen part doesn't make it so. Nor is anyone downplaying the fact that a huge scam has taken place.

The discussion should be about whatever people want it to be. And it will be. It is also about people who almost destroyed the RG Vintage Section over their blind adherence to VDB, and in doing so upset a lot of people and caused a good deal of bitterness, now getting their just deserts. Childish perhaps, but it's only human to get some pleasure from this. The A1 sauce and the rusty builds, etc, are just as important as the fake parts sold as gen and 1:1 cases which are nowhere near, they are all part of the con and all totally unacceptable. Also just as important is the case of those who, knowing that VDB were not what they were reputed to be, sold on their VDB watches to other members without disclosing the flaws and before making public their concerns. This is not what any of the forums are or should be about.. This of course is not everyone who sold a VDB, and I believe that one or two sold them on at a big loss knowing the quality was not acceptable, and good on them for being honest at their cost..

Yeah I just read that too, but it flies in the face of what respected people have said in the W-C thread. Very sad for the people who bought into the fairy tale.

Awesome watches held together with glue and plastic movement holders, misrepresented movements and parts,1:1 cases which aren't, shoddy work, A1 Steak Sauce? The Emperor's new clothes are shown up for what they are. Overpriced reps sold by scammers. There must be a lot of people waking up today to the 'investment value' of their VDB watches being virtually nil.

Oh but I do think so. Try reading the Robert bashing threads on other forums in the past and the same people keep showing up. One at least was actually banned from another forum for personal attacks on this dealer and has a chip on his shoulder so big it's the whole potato. It's amazing how many fragile egos there are on these forums. Sure Robert is not for everyone, you take him as he is on his terms (for which there are good reasons) or stay away, but the suggestion that other 'rep communities' have less respect for their members is frankly ludicrous, at least Robert hasn't pulled stunts like Eurotimez and WM9............................... Consider - Robert clearly has more satisfied than dissatisfied customers or he'd go out of business. And as Watchmeister says, he's not here to defend himself, so the attacks are even more cowardly and one sided.

Wow! Not another Robert bashing thread? And full of the usual suspects........................

It's a damn sight easier to get the correct tool and a few spare springs from Ofrei............

I wouldn't advise touching it as you have no experience as yet. Leave it to Reg to sort out. There are a number of possible causes from a loose hand to a movement fault.

So you "threw down" and "pulled the trigger". Is that anything similar to "I bought"? Such misuse of the english language makes me want to "throw up" and "pull the trigger" on perpetrators of such abominations. Call me old fashioned............................

This is already on RWG1. RG next................................

Yes 28.5mm would do the trick, the smaller ones leave a gap round the rehaut.

I have a Sea Dweller case in which I've been asked to fit a new dial. However the two SD dials I have are approx 26.51mm diameter and don't fit the case. A Sub dial which fits the case is 29.02mm. I guess these are different rep versions, but which is which as I obviously need to obtain a 29mm dial for this case? Does anyone have any info?

Lovely job, your Dad will love it! Welcome to the DJ franken club

You're right! I usually work from the parts list, which only shows part 1530. But I see Cousins list this plus a 1530.5 which is with jewels. Don't know how many times I've looked at that listing and never noticed it! Getting old is a b*gger

You can replace the entire Balance and bridge gen to clone without problems. I have also used the gen 4th (seconds) gear, escapement wheel and mainspring, among others, on the clones. I must admit I haven't seen the reversers with internal jewels either, Cousins UK certainly don't offer a choice but it figures the high grade movements will have this sort of improvement. One of the problems with this whole subject is the Chinese are modding things all the time. The Zigmeister's post is now out of date in quite a few respects, the bridges for example now appear interchangeable with the gen with the pegs on the bridges, not the mainplate. Currently the only obvious difference is the shock spring.

Every clone 2836-2 I've stripped has had the jewelled reversing gear pivots. Most have also had the 8 hole reversing gear. Neither should be considered a tell. This is a recent clone (received making a noise and sent to me for repair. A good example of Chinese QC!), note the jewels and the reversing gear holes. the only tell is the shock spring (it's not clear in the pic that there is only one groove, but the springs are different between Novodiac and clone - This is the Novodiac spring, similar but different -

So Bergeon, AF and such manufacturers make bezel removers which operate evenly all round the bezel to avoid the bezel getting damaged or bent? How stupid are they when you can 'pop it off' with a knife................. Not something I'll be trying.

Great write up, very interesting, thanks for posting.

Yes I understand the 2893 is designed to have an add on GMT function (in the 2893-2. the -1 and -3 are not GMT) whereas the 2836 GMT is a rep mod based as far as I can see on the 2893-2. I cannot see any mechanism in the 2893-2 to allow the 24 hour hand to skip. And there is no getting away from the fact it is too thin for the available cases though it is a higher quality movement undoubtedly.

My understanding is the 2893 uses a very similar GMT setup to the 2836 so I'm not sure what is meant by a proper GMT movement or adjusting by the hour, Take a look at the mechanism here - http://www.cousinsuk...A2893-1,2,3.pdf - no sign of any fancy gearing,the parts look very similar to a clone 2836 GMT I had stripped down on the bench last week. Oh and based on recent experience with Yuki over an Explorer I case, dial and bracelet, I would give Yuki a wide berth, everything had to go back in the end as the case was not compatible with gen parts and the dial was frankly poor. The bracelet had 'Rolex' upside down on the clasp. What a load of crap frankly.

Interesting topic. There must be a measure of status goes with wearing a Rolex, but if you are of a certain status, and old enough, I am certainly old enough, no-one blinks an eyelid. I wear frankens instead of gens because I'm a cheapskate, the same reason I buy my Mercedes second hand (someone else can carry the biggest depreciation hit and any teething problems). I am not at all into the new model Rolexes with saphire crystals, etc, give me the good old fashioned organic feel of an acrylic crystal. I tend to wear the same watch day in, day out, and for the past 18 months or so have worn nothing but my two franken DJs (case serials date to 1978 and 1984) which take turns of around three months each. I actually feel very comfortable with these as I feel I am not trying to make a statement, I just love the classic DJ look, the reliability and good timekeeping of a properly serviced swiss ETA, but no doubt a psychiatrist would find some deep dark reason allied to sexual deprivation or the like to show I'm just a fake person. I do however see a progression, so far from rep to modded rep to franken and I start to hear the call of the gen, so no doubt that will be my next move if I can overcome my scottish mean streak and break through the cobwebs on my wallet! I would add that Rolex has always been my grail watch, I came very close to buying a used gen Sub in the 70's but my then girlfriend persuaded me to use the money to get a Seiko diver and a new camera............. On such things are our destinies shaped

Nothing a Cape Cod cloth wouldn't fix.............