Nitpickers thoughts and critique Gen 240 Vs. Best Cartel Ultimate Auto

[tanya]

Recently I was fortunate to aquire my beloved K series Gen 240. I had owned a couple of Gen Pams before, a 176H for about a month and a 242 which I traded for the 240. This was my first experience owning a Genuine Luminor Marina Automatic. I have owned a couple of different Cartel Ultimate's each having what was regarded as the best crystal (as the Cartel Ultimates had a few different crystals with different AR, slightly different cyclops, ect. Kbiz could best speak to these differences)

I had an Ulti 088 and currently own an Ultimate 220(sitting on Rexies bench awaiting further tinkering) both with the best crystal and Vaclume. The 220 has a Leowheel atop a genuine Eta Valjoux 7750 which Rex modified and installed for me as well as a polished and tightened Seadbo CG. I will speak to this model in my comparisons as it as about as close to a genuine Automatic Luminor Marina (not including true Frankens with Genuine parts) as an Automatic Pam rep gets.

I have had the 240 for nearly two weeks now and I wanted to share my opinions and thoughts as to how it really matches up to the gen. Overall I love the 220 and can't wait to have it back but owning a similar gen has made me look at it from perhaps a differnt perspective. In short you really start to notice things that you never may have when you can eyeball it with a gen in person.

1. The case

- The genuine case tube seats the crown about 1.5 - 2 mm away from the case. The Ultimate casetube seats the crown flush with the case. Many have simply used a slightly longer stem and an extra gasket to solve this problem but still especially with the post H new hex shaped gen tubes this is extremely noticable when matched with a gen. Others more talented with the proper tools like The Zigmeister and Kbiz have made their own gen spec casetubes to seat the crown the correct distance from the case. In any event this is something that may seem obvious to some but is very noticeable when you eyball them together. Interestingly enough the Ultimate case makes for an excellent Pre-V case as the crown sits closer to the case on the genuine Pre-V's. The Ultimate Caseback is very good though the Genuine engraving and raised script is a bit sharper

- Lug screws. The genuine post H Luminors have the new lug screw quick release push buttons. To date no rep pams have this new feature. Personally I think it's goofy and an gimick. I actually prefer the prefectly machined Pre-H lug screws but that's my own personal opinion. Ultimate and almost every other pam version with screws however end up stripping, getting stuck or having some other problem. Every Pam case I have owned with the exception of Pre-V screw lugs has had this problem whether the threads are sloppy or the screws are a cheaper steel that don't hold up. This is made a further pain in the ass as sourcing replacement Ultimate lug screws is nearly impossible and genuine or aftermarket screws do not fit. This has been a major failing with Rep Pams across the board unless you are fortunate to have an EL case which takes genuine lug screws. River bars have been a godsend but the fact that they can't make a Uniform well functioning lug screw sucks.

- Crown Guard. The Genuine K series Rollerball CG is perfect, nuff said. Snaps tight, stays shut, keeps crown from moving while secure.

The stock Ultimate CG does snap shut like a gen(at least the couple i have owned did) because they are inaccurate in apperance though I replaced mine with a polished Seadbo. I have also owned watches with V CG's which to me are still the best match to the gen in terms of apperance and also function. With the reps, replicating the snap and security of the gen CG has as much to matching it up with the right crown as whether it is a V, LH or Seadbo. These better CG's do fit with the Ultimate Crown but for whatever reason do not snap closed like the gen. Maybe it is a matter of the distance of the crown from the case and the pressure of the rep CG against the inner crown dish. The best option would be fitting an improved tube and gen springloaded (or at least a palp or T) crown to the case. Rex is going to fit my T crown to the 220 and space it a hair away from the case for me. We will see if this makes a difference but the Ultimate crown unmodded with whatever CG does not have the same security or feel as the gen.

- Crown. The Gen is actually a hair thinner than the Ultimate and the T. Not sure if this pertains to post H gen crowns but it is a bit thinner than the Ultimate or T. The Gen also has much better machining than the Ultimate which whose teeth appear softer and less defined. The Gen springs open a bit when the CG is opened, the Ultimate does not nor does the T. The Gen spring has a great feel. Hopefully Palp or T make spring loaded crowns in the future they really make a difference in the fitment with an improved CG as well as overall feel when winding. As I mentioned the best option would be to have a gen-ish tube built and to find and fit a genuine crown but most do not have access to this option and the genuine steel crowns are as rare as genuine Pre-V dials (unless you are The Zigmeister, Kruzer or Kbiz!)

- The Crystal. Here is where the lionshare of my own physical apperance nitpicking comes into play. Until I recieved my Gen 240 I was under the impression that the best Ultimate crystal was as good as an auto pam crystal got in comparison with the gen. In person this has become a glaring tell. Though the improved Ultimate crystal is still better than the best improved DSN it still has some noticiable issues. I have found in comparison with the gen that the Ultimate Crystal Date mag is actually a bit to large. In addition the Ultimates as well as the DSN's have a ring of crystalized epoxy around the cyclops that leaves a noticable milky white ring around the cyclops. The gen cyclops has no such issue, though there is a ring it is crisp and rather seamless. Every rep pam crystal with cyclope I have seen has this issue. I would imagine this is a matter of QC more than anything. Further the improved Ultimate is regarded as having the best AR but it appears to be too glossy in comparison with the gen. The gen seems to not have double AR as the reps do but a rather light inner AR. Both will show reflections but the Gen is very clear while the rep shows color (not the blue crap color everyone hates but some glossy color none the less) The Ultimate Cyclopes also shows far more distortion than the Gen. This is perhaps the most noticable tell with the crystals and as you can see the glossy AR is most apparent under the cyclope while the gen is clear and free of distortion straight on. Date fonts are about the same as I have a Leo in the 220 but even the Ultimate stock wheels are pretty darn good.

- The dials. With The Zigmeister or Vaclume the dials are actually very very close. Fonts, shape ect all pretty damn gen-ish. Though the 240 tobacco dial has so much character to it in the way it changes color with the light that any comparison with the rep is prob unfair. But on whole a relumed Ultimate Dial is as close as it gets

- The movement. As I had a genuine Rexta Valjoux modified and installed the movement feel and rate results are more or less the same. However the date on the gen changes over about one minute before midnight. Rex is going to rectify this and ensure the movement in the Ultimate also turns over at midnight. The stock asian movement even regulated vibrates and quakes like a mother in comparison with the gen.

I look forward to your thoughts and opinions. This wasn't meant to be a review but more my own thoughts on the best available modded Auto versus a similar Gen auto and it wasn't meant to pee on the Ultimates which I love and can not wait to get back from Rex. However when you have the real deal on your wrist you do start to notice things that you might never thought of.

[blackbard]

Thanks for the information. It is hard to tell the subtle differences unless you have actually held one....On my piece the difference is primarily in the crown guard.....

[Watchmeister]

Excellent analysis. The funny thing on reps is that almost every piece of the puzzle needs a little help. Many things you can either improve or solve with aftermarket modding. It will never get to true gen spec and that is why so many people who own reps also own gens. I have had the benefit of owning rep and gen of a number of pieces and had came to the same conclusion.

[TK471]

With some of my best modded reps, the little things have continued to annoy me. But I promise you that's because I'm aware of the little flaws more than it being a case of the little flaws being obvious to the casual observer. It's a matter of getting comfortable with "close enough." Frankens, of course, change the game.

[tanya]

Excellent analysis. The funny thing on reps is that almost every piece of the puzzle needs a little help. Many things you can either improve or solve with aftermarket modding. It will never get to true gen spec and that is why so many people who own reps also own gens. I have had the benefit of owning rep and gen of a number of pieces and had came to the same conclusion.

Thanks Kruzer. Agreed on all points and I suppose that's why I wrote this. As Autopam reps go the Ultimates are still amazing beautiful timepieces and had I not bought the Gens I may have never noticed the subtle nits like the crystal (which I had previously thought to be outstanding!)

And I did not right this to offend anyone or crap on the Ultimates. Obviously the crown and CG are issues most my notice without ever picking up a gen. Many of these nits can be modded out of the Ultimates and are far worse on other Pam reps. I wonder if anyone knows if Chief ever stripped and redid the AR on an Ultimate crystal. To my mind outside of Simon's Pre-V art, the Ultimates are still the most accurate pam replica's available and the most satisfying to mod as seen in Kruzer and Rolli's amazing pieces but once you have owned a gen or held a gen for some time you see things from perhaps a different perspective

[kbiz]

can't redo the AR on ultimate crystals because they are sandwich construction... otherwise I would have long ago... DSN's new one piece 7mm cyclops crystal might change that even though the cyclops is wrong as I've successfully removed it's cyclops and have almost finished it's replacement process