Replica Daytona (w/ Zenith Movement) On Ebay

[Omega-Reign]

This is the first thing he's SELLING.

All of his feedback is from buying.

Whoever said that there is a sucker born every minute was wearing a quartz watch.....in need of a battery change.

Ohm.

Edited December 30, 2006 by Omega-Reign

[themuck]

Thanks for the pics ubiquitous - I've already spent quite some time admiring your project elsewhere on this forum.

For a Noob like me, it's just too much $ to risk coz I aint got the skills, the experience, the $, the knowledge the....list is long...

Searching for the Daytonas I've always wanted accidentally lead me to this forum (after months of looking elsewhere - the usual scam dealer / review sites, garbage China & Taiwan 'dealers' etc) and I've spent obscene amounts of time reading and researching here, at TRC, RWI, every dealer site and everywhere else only to come to the conclusion that I'll probably never get an accurate and reliable rep Daytona...and saved myself hundreds of dollars worth of disappointment at the same time - although not pulling the trigger on two or three of these has proved to be very difficult to say the least -http://s16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/puretime/WATCHES/ROLEX/DAYTONA/DAYTONA%20GOLD%20NEW/

Having said that, your project demonstrates that this type of quality is achievable if the will was there with the manufacturers so maybe there is still some hope for the distant future...and the rep this scammer is trying to pass off also shows that very accurate Daytonas are obtainable and are only 'spottable' by the highly knowledgeable - i.e the outstanding and amazingly observant members of this forum.

Because of the posts on the forums, I'm taking a look at vintage Daytonas coz apparently they are closer to the gen and more reliable than the 'doctored' secs@6 models but I reckon they too are flawed and guys of your calibre would spot them in a heartbeat from across the room - so I probably wont bother with them either...unless you guys tell me differently of course

I've kinda gone off topic guys and I apologise for this but I'm kinda just letting you guys know that I fully acknowledge and respect your expertise (that you have demonstrated yet again in this new thread) and also just pass on how much I (and many others) appreciate the fact that you guys are prepared to share your knowledge with others...and help prevent any of us spending real money on 'real' reps.

It's Genuinely Appreciated - Thank You All

[ubiquitous]

@Ubiquitous:

Since I don't see many (actually none) offering these for sale:

WHERE IN THE WORLD DO YOU GET CASES THAT GOOD?

Well, the gen case came from one of my favorite sources who has helped me out with many a project... The aftermarket case and dial came from a different source. Having both cases in hand has really helped in terms of identifying the differences between the two... And I have got to say- The aftermarket case isn't very far off. It's scary good, and with a gen bezel and crystal installed, it would be very difficult to discern it from genuine, unless a genuine accompanied it for comparison.

The rest of the parts and movements are all collected over time- Supply can be a little dry at times, but with patience, perseverance and most importantly, a little cash, anything is possible. Oddly enough, I've found my luck to be that parts are always available when I'm not in the position to buy them figures...

At any rate... I set about building these Daytonas because there simply weren't any available as reps that were worthwhile to me. So, after a solid year of building (actually waiting for the right movement to come along), my white dial is complete; my black dial has taken a bit less time at 3 months.

As for vintage Daytonas (as mentioned by themuck), those are do-able as well. One can build a very nice 6263 or 6265 with a genuine Swiss Valjoux 72 (ideal) or Swiss Valjoux 23 (a nice, lower cost alternative). Here is my vintage 6265 with V23 installed... This one has also been a longtime project for me

Seems they always are....

Cheers!

R

[Omega-Reign]

That's quite a creation. And it's good to know you are not selling them. They are deadly accurate.

I like the vintage models and the older Daytona Reps better. There is an annoying feature on Daytona Reps.

Only if the buyers knew. It only takes a few things to look for. Then again, any advice is only good for the moment because they are getting better and better.

Almost all replicas have a single flaw that few can catch: THEY LOOK LIKE REPRODUCTIONS.

I know that sounds stupid, but when you look at any replica it has a strange copycat look, which is actually just the sum of all of its flaws, looked at all at once.

There is a luster, a "Gen-Aura" (if you will) that doesn't exist. They simply look reproduced. I cannot quite put it in words. The "Frankenwatches" or Hybrids have more of that refined, quality-assurance look that you don't get in replicas.

To try to explain it, it reminds me of a sighting I had once. (Lord forgive me for relating this, but...)

I saw a really attractive woman as I was walking down the street. Yet, within that same moment that I noticed her attractiveness, I noticed something else:

SHE WAS A "REPLICA."

I looked to the person walking with me. And he agreed.

My point is: No matter how good a reproduction, A REP IS A REP.

They either try too hard to be like the real deal....and mess up.

Or they miss something else. Buyers on Ebay need to stop focusing on what they can afford, and take the time to get to really know the product they want to buy. And if they really wanted the object of their desire without getting scammed, they would save up and go to a more reputable place. The watch companies themselves tell them, for crying out loud:

OUR PRODUCTS ARE NOT SOLD OVER THE INTERNET.

In the instance that they don't have to save, it means they have more time to do their homework.

(See Thumbnail for Daytona pusher flaws)

There is a luster, a "Gen-Aura" (if you will) that doesn't exist. They simply look reproduced. I cannot quite put it in words. The "Frankenwatches" or Hybrids have more of that refined, quality-assurance look that you don't get in replicas.

Did I just make a distinction between a Hybrid (or Frankenwatch) and a Replica?

Yup!

Edited December 31, 2006 by Omega-Reign

[ubiquitous]

Absolutely. It's a funny thing, really... If you've seen and handled enough gens, spotting the reps isn't too terribly difficult... Especially if you have them in hand. It's usually the little details that give them away... Or sometimes the big details.

At any rate, a rep is indeed a rep. A gen is simply a gen. A frankenstein is somewhere in between, but still not a gen, even with all genuine parts. If it lacks the provenence, it's just simply not... But for me, my enjoyment is in building, and so my frankens hold a special place in my heart

Plus, they make great conversation topics...

[Omega-Reign]

You know,

Now that I think about it:

Watch people are not ordinary folks. They may be "down to earth" but not ordinary (and some watch people, perhaps because of their depth of knowledge or "class" or economic stature) may not be so "down to earth." In any event, people who appreciate fine timepieces are a little special. If anyone doubts that, ask five people that you do not know, randomly: "Do you think a watch is just a watch, something to tell time with?" And see what they say.

With that in mind, someone with enough money to buy an $8K watch or a number of them, or knows what a Rolex Daytona even is (and as Ubiquitous as the brand is, not everyone does), that person should know what to look for. He should make it his or her business to know....before investing. $8-$10K or more is an investment.

Would YOU make an investment on Ebay?

People need to learn that "POWERSELLER" is just that: They have sold to a lot of people. Sometimes people get beat and are too upset with themselves to even report it, or mention it to the seller or post negative feedback. They may say "I'll never get duped again" They feel stupid. Feedback is virtually meaningless when it comes to buying watches via auction (as we have seen people abuse that status).

You have to have that "Sixth Sense" about matters. Especially about the product you are interested in.

My point is: I don't see the point of this particular section of this forum anymore. I don't see the buyers as unsuspecting innocent ignorant victims. If they are, they shouldn't be! Putting that much money down is like walking into Charles Schwab Tommy's Investments across the street from Schwab and opening an account with $20K just because Tommy's Investments has an office on Wall Street. (I've worked there. It's overrated. My new place is much better).

It doesn't make sense. Neither does buying an $8,000 watch from the internet. Not in this day and age.

True there are your Watchseller.com's and Bernardwatch.com's, guys that have a reputation for good honest business. If they decided to sell on eBay someday, then hopefully that reputation will go with them.

But buying from someone whose ENTIRE PRESCENCE is INTERNET-AUCTION BASED is asking to have your money taken.

So,

Tell that baby to stop crying about that lollypop that was just snatched. He should have held it tighter.

And I especially don't feel sorry for you if you pay $$$$ for one of those Daytonas with the ugly, ill-situated, poorly threaded pushers.

They should know better.

Edited December 31, 2006 by Omega-Reign

[ubiquitous]

Quite honestly, I am not sure the seller of this watch on eBay even has the watch for sale. Would be interesting to see the seller's response if one of our NJ/NY based members contacted him to see the watch in person

[themuck]

As usual, good points well made guys.

@Mods - I know this is slightly off topic but I'm just responding to excellent points about scamming victims made by established and knowledgeable members - apologies.

I do feel sorry for those who are lulled into a false sense of security by a professional listing that is backed up by thousands of positive feedback, powerseller status and the fact that the seller has hundreds of other gen watches currently on ebay that are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars - each!!!

That's what happened yesterday when someone dropped E8,550 on the blatant AP ROO fake from the German dealer that was 'outed' elsewhere in the Auction Scams section.

With regard to research - I fully agree that you must do everything you can to ensure that any investment decision you make (from $100 to $10k) is made with all the information and knowledge you can possibly obtain. But, judging by the amount of time and effort I have spent over previous months looking for that elusive Daytona, most people will not go to that sort of lengths and will ultimately trust those that are established and seem to have the right credentials.

Should we really have no sympathy for those that aren't as interested in reps as we are (and wouldn't know a rep even if it said Boleks on the dial) and simply trust an established seller?

Do we really research absolutely everything so well that every purchase we make is the very best one - has nobody bought a car that was a dud only to find out that others would have spotted its problems - and now they think we're dumb just because we don't have the knowledge that they do - and why would we?

You make a good point about sixth sense or that gut feeling you just sometimes get about something Omega Reign - maybe that's why I wasn't duped by the dozens of scam rep sites I've seen coz something just wasn't right and eventually I found RWG and was thankful that I kept digging - but others aren't so fortunate even when they've done a decent amount of research (took me a while to find this forum).

And ubiquitous, I've read your posts and saw your pics all over the place and nobody could not be impressed by your projects. But just how difficult is such a project - sourcing the right parts, waiting forever to get them, assembly, calibration, pressure testing etc etc - a year is a long time.

Is there an easier way than this and should a Noob even be considering such a thing? I certainly wasn't but it seems obvious that to get a timepiece of the quality I'm looking for I've either got to save up and build it (what's the ballpark for a Daytona like yours?) or save up forever and buy the gen.

Thanks Again Guys

Happy & Healthy New Year To You All & Your Families

N.B.

What do you guys think of those gorgeous Daytonas from Angus -

http://s16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/pure...A%20GOLD%20NEW/

Am I asking for embarrassing trouble with these or are they good enough to get away with?

Or should I be looking at these -

http://www.trustytime.com/index.php?main_p...amp;cPath=1_103

Are they really more accurate and reliable? I know the vintage gens are rarer so are the chances of being 'called' slimmer?

@Mods - sorry for this off topic bit but these guys really know their stuff and seems like common sense to ask them for their considered opinions (just doing my research friends...just doing my research).

[themuck]

On second thoughts - I should have PM'd that last bit - please forgive me...I'm a Noob...sorry

[ubiquitous]

And ubiquitous, I've read your posts and saw your pics all over the place and nobody could not be impressed by your projects. But just how difficult is such a project - sourcing the right parts, waiting forever to get them, assembly, calibration, pressure testing etc etc - a year is a long time.

Is there an easier way than this and should a Noob even be considering such a thing? I certainly wasn't but it seems obvious that to get a timepiece of the quality I'm looking for I've either got to save up and build it (what's the ballpark for a Daytona like yours?) or save up forever and buy the gen.

With regards to pricing... The project largely depends on the availability of parts at price points you feel comfortable with. Case kits are $1,000+; El Primero movements are another $1,000 - $1,600, and in some cases you'll need to factor in the cost to service. Genuine dials are $800 to $1,200, etc. not to mention all the small parts needed. For my white dial Daytona, I have $3,600 into it; my black dial has around $3,200 in. These pieces are still not cheap, but much less than the cost of a gen. Oh.... Don't forget to factor in the cost of someone assembling if you don't feel comfortable doing so yourself. I assembled both of mine, so I have no idea what that might cost.

As for how long such a project will take to complete- It all depends on the availability of parts. When it rains, it pours, but when it's drought... Well, all I can say is patience is key. I waited a long time for my first project, as I was very particular about the movement I wanted. I was very keen on getting the 31j El Primero, instead of the 17j variant, which seemed to be plentiful at the time. My second Daytona took much less time as I happened to come across the right movement much sooner (which happened to be by luck; I was expecting to find a 17j EP, but lucked out with a 31j afterall).

Oh... The final key to the project is resources. I cannot stress how important this is. Sure... You can find some of these parts on eBay, and sometimes the Bay can be a great source of parts. But... You have to know what to look out for, as with anything. And, of course, you have to potentially compete with others when bidding for items. If you have some third party sources, that can make life much, much easier (I myself have 3 ).

N.B.

What do you guys think of those gorgeous Daytonas from Angus -

http://s16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/pure...A%20GOLD%20NEW/

Am I asking for embarrassing trouble with these or are they good enough to get away with?

Or should I be looking at these -

http://www.trustytime.com/index.php?main_p...amp;cPath=1_103

Are they really more accurate and reliable? I know the vintage gens are rarer so are the chances of being 'called' slimmer?

@Mods - sorry for this off topic bit but these guys really know their stuff and seems like common sense to ask them for their considered opinions (just doing my research friends...just doing my research).

With regards to off the shelf Daytonas...

Sec @ 6:00 1165xx models are ones I would steer clear of. Their movements are not exactly the most reliable with those 11 extra gears shifting subdial output, and the case is abnormally bloated since it must accomodate the now much thicker 7750 with the extra bridges to hold said 11 gears in place; a genuine 116520 is quite thin at 12mm in profile. As such... The case and caseback are made much deeper to hold the movement while providing enough clearance for the rotor. Other details- the bezel is too thick and too angled (which is wrong, as genuine bezels are relatively quite flat), and the rehaut is far too deep. The winding crown is of incorrect shape and size and is positioned incorrectly on the profile of the case (too far back). The pushers are spread too far out and don't look right (a point that Omega Reign also pointed out prior). Not to mention... If you're going to get the gold version, a plated version simply won't have the weight

Vintage 6263/5's (and 6239's 6240's, etc.)... These are a bit easier to make, so I would advise building if you want a keeper piece. Case kits are more widely available and less expensive; you can pick up most for around $500; some are less and some are more. Again, it depends on the details, what's available, etc... it pays to know what to look for. A Valjoux 72 movement will run around $1200+ with prices increasing thanks to franken builders (of which there are many) and collectors of V72 based pieces (of which there are even more of). Dial, hands, etc. may also be needed... Count on paying a couple hundred more for these and don't forget to factor in servicing of the movement... For a movement of this era, I would count on a servicing to provide a good baseline and idea of overall condition of the movement.

Unfortunately, off the shelf Daytonas need some work...

[Omega-Reign]

@TheMuck: (See Marcello C Senatore pic at bottom)

I appreciate your views and I understand the forums stand on preventing the scams, although it is like indulging in prostitution on the weekends while working as a vice squad cop during the week----and a married one.

This section is like the Nobel Prize: Honoring high achievement in various fields, yet instituted quite possibly out of guilt of the fruitage of Nobel's creations. Is this here to quell the consciences of those who feel somewhat wrong about buying replicas, dodging customs, lying, etc.?

I sure hope not.

With regard to research - I fully agree that you must do everything you can to ensure that any investment decision you make (from $100 to $10k) is made with all the information and knowledge you can possibly obtain. But, judging by the amount of time and effort I have spent over previous months looking for that elusive Daytona, most people will not go to that sort of lengths and will ultimately trust those that are established and seem to have the right credentials.

If you did that for a replica, should not a person buying a real Daytona be able to do just as much, being that much more is at stake? Is that not logical? Actually, the "homework" I was referring to can be done in 2 seconds: "There are fakes out there. I better go to an AUTHORIZED DEALER. Breitling, Rolex, Omega are saying not to buy their products on the internet"

Homework Done!

Should we really have no sympathy for those that aren't as interested in reps as we are (and wouldn't know a rep even if it said Boleks on the dial) and simply trust an established seller?

Again,

The interest is not in replicas. It is in wanting your purchase to be what it purports to be. You don't even have to think about replicas when buying a genuine watch. If you go to a trusted, respected source you don't have that to worry about. If you want to save $$$ and take a chance, then you do.

Do we really research absolutely everything so well that every purchase we make is the very best one - has nobody bought a car that was a dud only to find out that others would have spotted its problems - and now they think we're dumb just because we don't have the knowledge that they do - and why would we?

I buy undershirts without doing too much research. Yet, I keep in mind that if I go to a bargain store, I may have to look for that "Slightly Irregular" warning. If I don't want to be bothered with that, and am more interested in getting quality than saying I "got a deal" on some purchase, I go where I can pick up any package and get that quality.

But, if you insist that you must get a deal and that eBay is the way to go, it all comes down to just using good judgment (not necessarily being a detective)

Fore example:

Ebay seller w/ REAL STORE 23 years Same Location

So,

Let it be known that I'm not promoting some hard and fast rule about ANTI-EBAY. Going to an AD is the safest way to avoid getting scammed just as no sex is the safest sex. Neither may be practical for all people. Yet, who can you complaint to when you take that chance----and get burned?

We all want a $9,000 Watch (or a little more €uro) for less. We aren't rich (Or even if we are, we can be bargain hunters still)

So, it takes more discretion than detective work. Just my 2 cents.

AND MY LAST. Take care all

@The Muck:

Ever think of a Gen substitute for that Rep Daytona?

Marcello C. Senatore: Coincidentally, Available on Ebay

http://www.rwg.cc/members/uploads/remoteim...176127-8419.jpg

Edited December 31, 2006 by Omega-Reign

[themuck]

Ubiquitous...what can I say...thank you very much indeed just isn't enough in this instance

I have a great deal to think about over the next month or two while I'm working overseas - I leave on Wednesday with lots of decisions to make...and lots of advice, guidance, tips and knowledge gained through this and other forums that I've printed for reference and will take with me to study.

I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one for the moment Omega-Reign ..although I confess to perhaps focussing my sympathy on the unfortunate victim of the German AP ROO scam discussed elsewhere, which has possibly clouded my judgement on the bigger picture :cc_confused:

With the New Year celebrations and my travels on Wednesday , I may not have the chance to discuss matters with you all for some time

Until Next Time - Thank You All So Very Much

themuck

[Omega-Reign]

Ok, Ok, this is my last:

That was just the sweetest little post...

Awwwww...

I'll be back in about a year myself.

'Till then.

Edited December 31, 2006 by Omega-Reign