collector21 Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Has this ever happened to any of you gentlemen? I push in the stem of my Chinese 6497 and the thing, instead of disengaging and going into the "I'm screwing into the crown now" mode, just keeps making this sick winding sound of gears crunching unhappily, as you screw down the damned crown! Is this sucker already shot? (The watch is barely a month old....) Oh, the thrill of adventure in the rep world! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collector21 Posted May 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 (edited) Is it remotely possible that this logical post is being willfully ignored...? Edited May 20, 2006 by collector21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ob1w0n Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 i think most of your replies are going to be "upgrade to the swiss". I suspect my SMP GMT is doing this as well, basically what happens is the rotor stops working too if it's an auto, so you open up the caseback and spin it to get the rotor working again, every time you set the time. For me, the asian movement is a learning experience in the different aspects of reps so I know exactly what to get next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 I think the problem is completely different, and the threads of the screw down crown are shot. This is a reported problem of the PAM183 and has happened to many people. You need to baby it or the threads go and it won't screw in any more. Davidsen is rumoured to have a possible fix for this, so you may want to do a search for this problem. This is also the reason I've stuck with Luminors and ignored the Radiomirs so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 i think most of your replies are going to be "upgrade to the swiss". I suspect my SMP GMT is doing this as well, basically what happens is the rotor stops working too if it's an auto, so you open up the caseback and spin it to get the rotor working again, every time you set the time. For me, the asian movement is a learning experience in the different aspects of reps so I know exactly what to get next time. If it IS the threads causing the problem, this is independent of movement and to do with the radiomir crown. Getting a Swiss ETA movement will not get you a better crown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 this problem has nothing to do with the threads AT ALL! its a movement/stem problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collector21 Posted May 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 this problem has nothing to do with the threads AT ALL! its a movement/stem problem Thank you for the thoughtful responses, Gentlemen. And particularly to you, Slay: you are correct when you state that this has nothing to do with the crown itself; this is a movement/stem problem, because the movement is actually still winding (i.e. not disengaged) when it ought to be passively screwing into the blinking crown! Basically, despite their attractiveness, and they are beautiful replicas, the PAM 183s are s--t. Time to acquire an elegant Luminor, as Chronus suggests. Damnit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highflyingclive Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 This is a well-known problem. The threads on the insert that engages with the threads on the crown are made of soft metal - and those threads strip. The Zigmeister has a fix - which involves removing the insert and shortening the winding stem. This means, of course, that there is no water resistance around the crown. But would you really want to take a replica swimming? I take mine off when I wash my hands. Happy timekeeping! Clive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 (edited) This is a well-known problem. The threads on the insert that engages with the threads on the crown are made of soft metal - and those threads strip. The Zigmeister has a fix - which involves removing the insert and shortening the winding stem. This means, of course, that there is no water resistance around the crown. But would you really want to take a replica swimming? I take mine off when I wash my hands. Happy timekeeping! Clive lol clive i think you didnt read his post properly, because his problem is in NO way related to the threads the problem is this: when trying to screw the crown on the threads, the movement keeps winding (and doesnt go in the "I'm not winding anymore, because you are trying to screw the crown in" position) Edited May 20, 2006 by slay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 That's the reason i thought the threads were gone, as it physically won't screw down anymore. Maybe The Zigmeister will know more having had experience of fixing these, and can recognize the symptoms you describe. It can't be due to the rotor, as the 183 is a manual movement watch, and therefore has no rotor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 Has this ever happened to any of you gentlemen? I push in the stem of my Chinese 6497 and the thing, instead of disengaging and going into the "I'm screwing into the crown now" mode, just keeps making this sick winding sound of gears crunching unhappily, as you screw down the damned crown! Is this sucker already shot? (The watch is barely a month old....) Oh, the thrill of adventure in the rep world! The stem and crown have to disengage for you to be able to screw the crown down. In other words, when the crown is unscrewed from the case, the stem locks to the crown and both turn as one, as soon as you go to screw the crown to the case, the stem to crown are supposed to disengage and the stem stays fixed, and the crown turns independtly so it can be screwed down... What you describe is that they are NOT disengaging... problem is not the case crown tube, but the stem to crown clutch... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collector21 Posted May 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 The stem and crown have to disengage for you to be able to screw the crown down. In other words, when the crown is unscrewed from the case, the stem locks to the crown and both turn as one, as soon as you go to screw the crown to the case, the stem to crown are supposed to disengage and the stem stays fixed, and the crown turns independtly so it can be screwed down... What you describe is that they are NOT disengaging... problem is not the case crown tube, but the stem to crown clutch... RG The Zigmeister, you're a prince! Thank you for accurately diagnosing the problem. I have contacted the dealer, who shall remain nameless for reasons of form. Question: is this worth addressing on a relatively inexpensive watch, or should I just hope that the thing keeps running...until it inevitably dies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collector21 Posted May 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 lol clive i think you didnt read his post properly, because his problem is in NO way related to the threads the problem is this: when trying to screw the crown on the threads, the movement keeps winding (and doesnt go in the "I'm not winding anymore, because you are trying to screw the crown in" position) I appreciate your keen understanding, Slay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highflyingclive Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 I bow to the master... and English isn't even his mother tongue. Hiding my head in shame... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 What you describe is that they are NOT disengaging... problem is not the case crown tube, but the stem to crown clutch... RG You learn something new everyday And slay you were right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finepics Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 It seems that the Chinese made 6497 is beginning to show it's hand. I have just had one here where the centre wheel (this is the gear that is visible in the centre of the movt and is driven by the mainspring) had seperated from the lower part. This meant that it would wind briefly then the hands would spin round as the gear loosened so allowing the mainspring to unwind. This is not the first one that I have heard of with this problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted May 22, 2006 Report Share Posted May 22, 2006 Didn't this happen to your 217 slay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collector21 Posted May 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2006 Lord Clive: your humility awes me! Gentlemen: the Chinese 6497 is a POS!!!!!!!! Stay away from these movements--they aren't worth the powder to blow them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted May 22, 2006 Report Share Posted May 22, 2006 Lord Clive: your humility awes me! Gentlemen: the Chinese 6497 is a POS!!!!!!!! Stay away from these movements--they aren't worth the powder to blow them up. Didn't The Zigmeister give them a good review though ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collector21 Posted May 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Didn't The Zigmeister give them a good review though ? He did, and goodness knows, the guy is usually spot-on--but as Finepics stated, the CN6497 is beginning to show its true colors. It sometimes takes a while for a series to break down...after all, assembly quality control and the quality of the parts themselves are just not up to ETA standards. I own two 183s, a G and an H. The G was touted as Genuine Swiss, the H, as a Chinese 6497. There is no difference between them, except for the finishing on the plates. I submit that there is no such thing anymore as a Genuine Swiss 6497 in a rep: all the hand-wind movements are Chinese, and the luck of the draw will determine whether you get screwed or not (wretched pun intended). One thing is certain, I paid $265 for a POS, and $110 for a second POS (POS #1 is beginning to grind away in similar fashion to POS #2). Do the math, and tell me which POS you would prefer to own.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 He did, and goodness knows, the guy is usually spot-on--but as Finepics stated, the CN6497 is beginning to show its true colors. It sometimes takes a while for a series to break down...after all, assembly quality control and the quality of the parts themselves are just not up to ETA standards. I own two 183s, a G and an H. The G was touted as Genuine Swiss, the H, as a Chinese 6497. There is no difference between them, except for the finishing on the plates. I submit that there is no such thing anymore as a Genuine Swiss 6497 in a rep: all the hand-wind movements are Chinese, and the luck of the draw will determine whether you get screwed or not (wretched pun intended). One thing is certain, I paid $265 for a POS, and $110 for a second POS (POS #1 is beginning to grind away in similar fashion to POS #2). Do the math, and tell me which POS you would prefer to own.... Well I don't think one or two examples out of thousands of movements makes for all of them to be bad. I have serviced a dozen or more of these - and so far have been lucky(?) to not have any with problems...not to say there aren't any out there.... There are plenty of examples of many other movements with issues, these are after all mechanical items and as such are prone to have problems. Your initial problem you identified at the beginning of the post is a crown problem, it's got nothing to do with the actual movement. As for a great wheel failing as finepics mentioned, they do fail, after all they are under tremendous stress at full wind...stuff happens, but of the thousands of movements being made, is this enough to state that everyone should stay away from these models? If the movements never failed, then why would ETA have such a great parts newtork built up to support their movements??? By comparison I have been getting many ETA Genuine 2892A2 types in that are not working right, they all have a common defect and now that I have seen it, and found a fix, I can get them working again... Does this mean we should stay away from the ETA 2892 series? I don't think so... It's all relative to your experience. If you have a Honda and it's a POS, your view is tainted, my Honda at 10 years old, is just now needing a new exhaust system - first defect in the car in 10 years of driving - and consider the climate and salt on the roads where I live...so to me Honda is a great car. As for assembly and quality control and quality of the parts compared to ETA, I can't see any noticeable difference. Teardown a Genuine ETA and you'll quickly see that they are in it for the quantity, not quality... I stand by my review and initial and ongoing impressions of this movement... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collector21 Posted May 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 I'm glad that you stand by your review, The Zigmeister: proves you are a man of honor. However, two failures out of two is the kind of batting average even the Sultan of Swat couldn't dream of.... This movement isn't ready for the show. And Honda does make great cars! But the CN6497 is the equivalent of GM testing their vehicles on customers--these movements will continue to improve over time. I just don't want to be part of the R&D team at $250 a pop. Well I don't think one or two examples out of thousands of movements makes for all of them to be bad. I have serviced a dozen or more of these - and so far have been lucky(?) to not have any with problems...not to say there aren't any out there.... There are plenty of examples of many other movements with issues, these are after all mechanical items and as such are prone to have problems. Your initial problem you identified at the beginning of the post is a crown problem, it's got nothing to do with the actual movement. As for a great wheel failing as finepics mentioned, they do fail, after all they are under tremendous stress at full wind...stuff happens, but of the thousands of movements being made, is this enough to state that everyone should stay away from these models? If the movements never failed, then why would ETA have such a great parts newtork built up to support their movements??? By comparison I have been getting many ETA Genuine 2892A2 types in that are not working right, they all have a common defect and now that I have seen it, and found a fix, I can get them working again... Does this mean we should stay away from the ETA 2892 series? I don't think so... It's all relative to your experience. If you have a Honda and it's a POS, your view is tainted, my Honda at 10 years old, is just now needing a new exhaust system - first defect in the car in 10 years of driving - and consider the climate and salt on the roads where I live...so to me Honda is a great car. As for assembly and quality control and quality of the parts compared to ETA, I can't see any noticeable difference. Teardown a Genuine ETA and you'll quickly see that they are in it for the quantity, not quality... I stand by my review and initial and ongoing impressions of this movement... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 I'm glad that you stand by your review, Ziggy: proves you are a man of honor. However, two failures out of two is the kind of batting average even the Sultan of Swat couldn't dream of.... This movement isn't ready for the show. And Honda does make great cars! But the CN6497 is the equivalent of GM testing their vehicles on customers--these movements will continue to improve over time. I just don't want to be part of the R&D team at $250 a pop. Good point, the fellow who has a Honda that is giving him troubles, is not comforted by the fact that mine has been trouble free for 10 years... It would be interesting to look at these watches and find and report on the problem, so that it could be determined where the problem actually is. Is it assembly errors, ancillary parts (crown, stem etc), or the movement having problems... I understand that it's no comfort to you the experiences I have had on the bench and first hand, I can only report on what I see...remember the Moljina movement, and the rust problems, once discoverd and noted on more than one model, I updated the post and changed my position... I have been wrong before, never a problem admitting that part, I just hope these are isolated cases and not affecting all units out there...since the initial impressions are good... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collector21 Posted May 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 Elegant, intelligent response, as usual, The Zigmeister. The 183H with the bona fide CN6497 isn't long for this world, and when it finally breaks, which will be soon enough, I will send it to you in the Great North for some quality investigation. The wire lugs had to be medium-bond Locktite cemented in place, for reasons we both know, which means that Aaron's superb vintage brown gator will ship with the thing, as well. And if you can isolate the malfunction and provide a lasting fix, know that many fellow members, me included, will be grateful to you for offering a chance to save their investments. Good point, the fellow who has a Honda that is giving him troubles, is not comforted by the fact that mine has been trouble free for 10 years... It would be interesting to look at these watches and find and report on the problem, so that it could be determined where the problem actually is. Is it assembly errors, ancillary parts (crown, stem etc), or the movement having problems... I understand that it's no comfort to you the experiences I have had on the bench and first hand, I can only report on what I see...remember the Moljina movement, and the rust problems, once discoverd and noted on more than one model, I updated the post and changed my position... I have been wrong before, never a problem admitting that part, I just hope these are isolated cases and not affecting all units out there...since the initial impressions are good... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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