Meanwhile, while France is steaming...

[eunomians]

...BBQs are being stoked so that bellies can be filled with meats.

Rest assured, the smoke will clear.

[FasTTaP]

Gosh, kids are protesting all over France because they all want security, state-employment, and a no-risk life...

I'm 35, I run 2 businesses and I take risks everyday... but I must now be an old schmunk.

I'm in despair with my own country, I'm not sure we'll make it to the 21th century...

I'm getting outta here.

[ryyannon]

Gosh, kids are protesting all over France because they all want security, state-employment, and a no-risk life...

I'm 35, I run 2 businesses and I take risks everyday... but I must now be an old schmunk.

I'm in despair with my own country, I'm not sure we'll make it to the 21th century...

I'm getting outta here.

FasTTaP, we ARE in the 21st century!

I know it's hard to understand this in France (hey, I live in Paris too), where it sometimes seems as if the country hasn't yet made it out of the 19th century.

It's sad really: the people have so much potential, but they're stuck in a system of internalized and externalized references that's preventing them from moving forward and finding their place in the world.

On a micro-scale (family, friends, village, neighborhood, 'tribe'), France still has a lot going for it - on the human level: on the condition of having a solid network of family and friends, living in a village for generations and/or having inherited your grandparent's seven-room apartment in the 6th arrondissement while being perfectly integrated within a professional, cultural or socio-economic group.

Outside of that, forget it. Problem is, more and more people are finding themselves 'outside of that.' They lack the Americans' sense of going it alone coupled with an infinite confidence in the future. The old tradition of family, roots, 'terroir' and connectedness is disappearing, leaving the French beached, stranded, high and dry - and consuming more anti-depressors and tranquillisers than any other population group in the world.

What a sad, sad ending for a people who were once so stellar.

After living half my life in the States and half here (with several years spent in various nice places around the world) I'm convinced that the old adage 'you can run, but you can't hide' is truer than ever.

Leave France? For where? NYC is deja-vu for me, and besides, you've gotta be rich just to live there these days. Same for S.F., L.A. and other points between. Must be literally thousands of nice little towns all around the U.S.(and the rest of the world) but one gets to the point where eating French bread and living in a city where you can still go out at night doesn't seem all that bad.

If you're getting out, where are you thinking of going? For a French entrepreneur, the UK or Ireland can seem like the Promised Land - but are you really ready to give up the Left Bank, the Luxembourg Gardens, the lovely little restaurants - and the totally depressing, hopeless and disconnected atmosphere of the place and the people?

For me, it depends on the day. Nights, I don't go out that much anymore. Been there, done that...

It's like being between a rock and a hard place, as they say.

Edited March 18, 2006 by ryyannon

[docblackrock]

Great post ryyannon, very true especially the bit "you can run but you can't hide"...

Trust me though, the UK is far far from the promised land it seems, that's just a huge PR exercise on the part of the government which no doubt will continue sickeningly unabated now London has 'won' the next-but-one Olympics. Tony's Magic Fantasy Island is just that, a fantasy. In reality, the core is rotten and corrupt and many of the the values that once made this country great have been eroded, I fear, irreversibly, and it saddens me.

As I've also found, you have to take refuge in the last vestiges of all that is good, whether that be architectural, cultural, or lifestyle-based. It is no different wherever you are. Personally, I need beautiful surroundings and a sense of history, it cheers my soul and I am very fortunate to have that at least.

When even that is not enough, I take myself off to one of 3 places...

Dublin the home of half my family, where there is now a real sense of confidence in the future, of embracing change for the better perhaps based on a booming economy, but whatever its working (although the rest of the country might not agree).

Stockholm - probably the most beatiful city in Europe, I have friends there and outside of winter (too cold and dark for me!) there is an outdoor lifestyle that I truly envy. Again, the standard of living (not in a monetary sense, more collective) also appeals.

And finally, Italy, my planned retirement home - either the Veneto first for a while then down south where the old ways are preserved - the sense of family, tradition, belonging, friendliness etc. unmatched anywhere in the world.

However, if you ask the locals how they see their own country, the Irish would go all melancholy ignoring the bigger picture, the Swedes would point out all-too-familiar problems of disenfranchisement and immigration, in a country where thankfully murder is still extremely rare, and the Italians....well taxes would get them started and then the floodgates would open.

Point is, everywhere is [censored] to some degree, you just have to filter out the negatives and find somewhere to take yourself that makes you feel good about the world.

Otherwise, you're f***ked.

Edited March 19, 2006 by docblackrock

[ryyannon]

nice post, doc...

I'll doubtlessly respond when my brain is working a bit better (it's nearly 5am in Paris at the moment), but you've made some interesting points and observations that I'd like to comment on.

It would be good to hear from the OP (FasTTaP) but being French, it's possible that he feels that he's already over-extended himself in terms of communicating with 'strangers.'

(A mild dig in the hopes of getting him to re-post in this thread ;-)

Rather than just running over at the mouth, I've found that honest discussions of where one is - and why - often helps to clarify one's larger position in space and time (time! this is a watch forum, right?)

Anyway, and before saying even more idiocies that I'll regret tomorrow morning, I'll sign off now - but like Ahharnold, 'I'll be back!' to see where - and how far - we literal and figurative expats can go in this thread.

Later, and thanks for your contribution,

ryyannon

Edited March 19, 2006 by ryyannon

[jjajh]

We sneer. We lampoon and ridicule the youth of today who ask questions concerning guarantees of tomorrow.... We imply that even to have voiced such questions places them irretrievably in the same category as the dispicable pan handlers who walk the streets and byways searching for hand-outs rather than seizing the day.... The reason why we do this is pretty straightforward. Firstly, in the dismal and confused sludge of opinion and half- truth that make up all altruistic theory and criticism, it is the only question worth asking. Secondly, we don't know the answer and we're scared that somebody will find out.

Is violence or rather apathy the last refuge of the incompetent?

Remember friends....this is the Looney Bin

[ryyannon]

@jjajh -

1. no one is born incompetent. some people are made to be incompetent, while others use their competences to invent contexts in which other people cannot exercise their own competences.

2, pan-handlers are not despicable: they are 'seizing the day' in the best way they can.

3. 'altruistic theory and criticism' is an empty and meaningless concept.

4. yes, questions concerning tomorrow are among the only ones worth asking. along with questions concerning today and yesterday.

5. violence, apathy and generalized stupidity are the first (and last) refuge of us all. we are all the same person.

6. you're starting to sound like a curmugeon, jjajh, and that's not like you at all. Come to think of it, so am i. is Gran up to his old tricks again?

edit/update:

my apologies, jjajh:

after re-reading your post this afternoon, it has all come into focus. the fault in misinterpretating your ideas is all mine: mea culpa. it would appear that as usual, we're on the same side of the barricade, as it were....

Edited March 19, 2006 by ryyannon

[ryyannon]

Trust me though, the UK is far far from the promised land it seems, that's just a huge PR exercise on the part of the government which no doubt will continue sickeningly unabated now London has 'won' the next-but-one Olympics. Tony's Magic Fantasy Island is just that, a fantasy. In reality, the core is rotten and corrupt and many of the the values that once made this country great have been eroded, I fear, irreversibly, and it saddens me.

As I've also found, you have to take refuge in the last vestiges of all that is good, whether that be architectural, cultural, or lifestyle-based. It is no different wherever you are. Personally, I need beautiful surroundings and a sense of history, it cheers my soul and I am very fortunate to have that at least.

Doc, what you have to understand is that from here (France) the UK and Ireland does seem like the Promised Land to (French) entrepreneurs and business owners. For the simple reason of vastly-reduced government red-tape, third-thirds less mandatory taxes and employee funds, a certain 'flexibility' in the labor market and a general can-do Anglo-Saxon attitude. Outside of this, the French expats couldn't give a hoot about the cultural and social erosion that you mention. The bottom line is business, and for the time being, the UK and Ireland are great places to do it for the French.

The same is true for skilled and even unskilled labor: French youth are expatriating as fast as they can, particularly the young second-generation immigrant poppulation who have absolutely no professional future here. They are unaminous in saying that in the across the Channel, you are judged by what you can (or can learn) to do, rather than your ethic or religious origins.

As a state, France is progressively disappearing into the Black Hole of its own inertia, cultural prejudices and the inability of its entrenched political ruling class to comprehend the 20th century - not to mention the 21st.

Blair's Britain has put its own spin on modernity, and for the time being, it seems to be working (in economic terms). Excepting the underclass composed of hundreds of thousands of permanently disinfranchised and more or less invisible Brits who fell by the wayside during the Thatcher years and who have never managed to climb back into the job-market.

That's my analysis of the situation from here. I agree that being able to 'take refuge in the last vestiges of all that is good, whether that be architectural, cultural, or lifestyle-based' is wonderful - if you can find a way to do it.

As you say, it is no different wherever you are. Beautiful surroundings and a sense of history do soothe the frazzeled soul, and I consider myself lucky to at least have that.

At the same time, I can no more close my eyes to the disintegration of a people and a way of life that you can. It's a strange trade-off, but I don't see other solutions. Other than to resist when possible, and to do the greatest possible good when the occasion presents.

Other than that, I'm like everyone else here: waiting for the next irrrestible watch...

[Usil]

Hi Watch fans,

I am an American currently living in Paris because of my job. I have lived here almost three years so I can give you a perspective from both sides. I saw a poll recently to French and American Expats asking why they left their home land (French moving to America and Americans moving to France). One of the top answers for both was 'Quality of Life'. I think to some extent there is the 'grass is greener' in the other pasteur synrome but this is not true for all. Many are adventurous and have the drive and opportunity to make a change in their life and it is the differences that makes this appealing. History, travel and cultures were a big motivator for me as I have been to every state in the US and was looking for a little change of scenery. Some people I know in the US could not understand that I actually looked forward to this.

As for expensive, I find it much more expensive here than in the US except for when I lived in the SF area. I was hoping to buy a little apartment after I retire but the cost for a 60 M apartment is ridiculously high. I accept the price difference (can't do anythign about it anyway) but it seems that the move to the Euro had something to do with it.

I have often been asked what is the big difference about living in Paris. Actually, it is not just one big thing but a lot of smaller differences that all add up over time. France embraces the computer and internet and yet has manual systems in government (drivers license and other government paperwork) that is purely manual like it existed in the 1950's in the US. Service in stores is (generally) below average compared to the US. On the other hand, culturally, you are in overload as to what is available to you. Paris is fantastic and a wonderful place to live. I enjoy the culture and sights. I drive by the Eiffel Tower on my way to work, WOW, I still pinch myself at this. So, costly yes, but there are large benefits. I was driving my motorcycle last fall in the countryside and came to the city square of a small village. The entire city was sitting in the grass and sidewalks watching a play. A travelling cargo van had parked at one end of the square and opened it's sides and there was a full stage and settings. A play proceeded that was fantastic involving sometimes members of the audiance. The cargo van was dirty and dingy with lots of dings and dents but the entertainment was wonderful. It had a turn of the century feel to it and I felt like I was in a time warp. I hvve had other experiences like this and frankly, the higher cost of living is worth it to me to experience something like this. To the young struggling to enter the job market - it is tough for them with 10+ percent unemployment.

Well, I have rambled long enough. Life always is a challenge. What looks good to one is not ok for another. We all have to make our life as we go and I hope the youth of today God Speed because I know it is tough.

Usil

[eunomians]

Having grown up in France, I can say that there is a lot to worry about for good ol' Arianne these days. The future looks grim for a country that was once so progressive many years ago during modernist times. Now that it's the post-post modern era, all has been dismatled, reassembled & dismatled over and over. What does the future hold?

Fascinating posts in this thread. I should've posted this thread in the Off Topic forum - moderator, wanna move this over there?