kidge007 Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 Wonder if you can assist a noob Having a look around the traders there are many prices and I guess qualities to the PVD Pams. Davidsen name keeps appearing and they are without a doubt the more expensive. Is it that the others lets say sub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 Contrarily from what many people think, the low cost PVD on PAM reps from "our" collectors is true PVD. But it is directly applied on brushed stainless steel without any previous beadblasting, so it looks shinier than genuine PVD. It is also made of a slightly different chemical substance than gen Officine Panerai PVD (kruzer00 and chieftang may explain it better), what makes it darker and a little less hard than gen PVD. Unfortunately, no auto PAM in PVD other than the 028. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 PVD is all about surface preparation and chemical coating. The surface preparation comes in the form of bead blasting...literally pounding the case with "glass" beads. The amount of time and size of bead will impact what the pre-pvd finish is. And it contributes to the sheen or lack thereof that you see after the PVD coat. As regards the PVD coat, it comes in numerous forms based on the underlying chemical compound. The most common traditional coatings are Ti, Tin and TiAln with another process known as DLC for watches. Panerai has used different coatings on different models and at different times. Here is a Tin process on a 09 rep. The finish on this one is damn close to the older PAM PVD's- a touch too blue but with proper sheen: If you are determined to do an automatic the standard (and only one prior to this year?) is the PAM 28 Power Reserve. Having said that both the 09 and the 28 use a more primitive and less durable form of PVD than what is on later PVD versions. Also today many watches utilize ceramics which is even more durable than any PVD process but again looks different. In terms of what is readily available I believe it works like this: Basic PVD Rep - True PVD but lack of surface preparation causes it to look too shiny (almost anodized) Davidsen PVD - Big improvement. Coloring is fairly close but case preparation leaves a flat gray appearance as opposed to the sheen on a gen Outside PVD sources - Don't know who is currently offering it but that will substantially raise the price . Other folks should feel free to correct me as I am writing this off the top of my head and I haven't thought about this for quite a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 Pretty good if that was off the top of the head Kruzer. Here is my Davidsen 202/A. I find that taking a Cape Cod cloth to his finish gives you the desired sheen and gets it closer to the genuine finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 I find that taking a Cape Cod cloth to his finish gives you the desired sheen and gets it closer to the genuine finish. That Cape Cod finishing actually makes DSN PVD much better, IMO! I am just scared to death at thinking to make a PVD coat even thinner by polishing it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 D- Although it is not helpful to the durability the "light polishing" with a cape cod does make a big aesthetic difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest avitt Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 That Cape Cod finishing actually makes DSN PVD much better, IMO! I am just scared to death at thinking to make a PVD coat even thinner by polishing it... If it is really PVD, then that shouldn't even be a concern. At 2000-4000 HV, PVD is nearly as hard as sapphire. You couldn't polish a sapphire crystal with a Cape Code cloth. I think much of the effect of using a CC on PVD comes from the oils or solvents in the cloth, which penetrate the surface of the PVD. (Similar to gunsmiths, who often oil PVD finishes for the desired effect). However, if it's not really PVD, then all bets are off... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 If it is really PVD, then that shouldn't even be a concern. At 2000-4000 HV, PVD is nearly as hard as sapphire. You couldn't polish a sapphire crystal with a Cape Code cloth. I think much of the effect of using a CC on PVD comes from the oils or solvents in the cloth, which penetrate the surface of the PVD. (Similar to gunsmiths, who often oil PVD finishes for the desired effect). However, if it's not really PVD, then all bets are off... This oil hypothesis is a very good one, IMO. In this case even just oiling, not polishing, would have the same effect. Unfortunately I have no DSN PVD watch to verify it. If, on the other hand, it is the polishing action that gives the result, then we have to assume that the polishing cloth is someway able to remove any fractions of the PVD coating. This is possible. Even if on the paper PVD is as hard as sapphire, in reality it can get scratched much more easily than sapphire -- as several Paneristi and myself can bear witness of. I cannot explain this, perhaps it is because its exceptional thinness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest avitt Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Even if on the paper PVD is as hard as sapphire, in reality it can get scratched much more easily than sapphire -- as several Paneristi and myself can bear witness of. I cannot explain this, perhaps it is because its exceptional thinness. I've got pretty good understanding of this, and your assumption is correct. When we talk about the hardness of a coating, we're just talking about "surface hardness". However, these coatings are very thin (on the order of 2-3 microns, or 1000ths of a millimeter). So when they receive a hard blow from a sharp object, the surface hardness will not be of much benefit, and the coating will assume the characteristics of the substrate - in this case, much softer stainless steel. When you see a scratch in a PVD watch, one of two things has happened: The coating has delaminated from the stainless steel. (This is very unlikely, as the bond created during the PVD or CVD process is very strong.)Some of the stainless steel has actually been gouged away, taking the PVD coating with it. The only way to "polish" PVD would be to use a material that is harder...and Cape cod cloths don't qualify. I'm pretty sure you could buff your watch with a CC all day long, and the PVD coating would not be appreciably thinner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Thanks avitt, I am a PVD fan and your posts have been very instructive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleJay Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Panerai PVD vs DLC For those of you who don't know me I'm Uncle Jay. I'm a long time collector of Panerai watches and moderator to both Paneristi and TZ Panerai forum. When Mr. Bonati first told me he would do a "Special Collector's" Panerai I went crazy, this was the first ever of it's kind. After months of email and phone calls Mr. Bonati agreed to resurrect both the Logo and PVD. Originally the 195 was to use NOS PVD cases (just to get them out of the warehouse) and special Logo dials and personalized case backs. Later Panerai had steel cases blasted and DLCd in it's place. The reasoning was that the NOS PVD cases were needed to replace any older watches in for repair and that the new DLC process was more durable. Either way, they became history. Below you find a picture of my 195 and a custom PVD Logo. The Logo has an original PVD case, you can see the difference. Vacor AG still does PVD while IWW does DLC. Vacor AG : http://www.vacor.li/english/default.htm IWW : http://www.angelfire.com/blues/andcameysiww/Firstpage.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 For those of you who don't know me I'm Uncle Jay. I'm a long time collector of Panerai watches and moderator to both Paneristi and TZ Panerai forum. Wow! Glad to see you here, and thanks for the info! Unfortunately, IWW is not willing to work on rep cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Actually I don't believe it is so much that he won't work on rep cases. His bigger issue is that when he did he ended up with 40 watches and mixing up cases from reps and gens. His real solution was to boost the prices north of $600. If you really are price insensitive and like his finish (and dlc is readily available) just take apart your watch first and send him the parts only. He is not going to know (nor care I suspect) whether it is rep or gen. But his pricing only makes sense for gen watches anyhow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 There are clearly folks here who know the technical ins and outs of PVD, so I wondered if anyone might be able to answer a question for me. I have a friend who cannot wear SS due to nickel reaction. Would a PVD coating make the watch 'wearable' for them (by creating a barrier between their skin and the SS) or, would the coating itself be likely to trigger the reaction? Thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I have a friend who cannot wear SS due to nickel reaction. Would a PVD coating make the watch 'wearable' for them (by creating a barrier between their skin and the SS) or, would the coating itself be likely to trigger the reaction? Unfortunately nickel is a component of most PVD coating too. On what I heard, the only reliable solution to Ni allergy are full-Titanium watches. I also seem to remember there was a thread by Victoria about it a few months ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest avitt Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 There are clearly folks here who know the technical ins and outs of PVD, so I wondered if anyone might be able to answer a question for me. I have a friend who cannot wear SS due to nickel reaction. Would a PVD coating make the watch 'wearable' for them (by creating a barrier between their skin and the SS) or, would the coating itself be likely to trigger the reaction? Thanks in advance I know that DLC is completely inert. One of its uses is to coat medical implants, so that they won't react with the patient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Yes, DLC is pure Carbonium, so no Nickel issue. Quite expensive though, I am afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Unfortunately nickel is a component of most PVD coating too. On what I heard, the only reliable solution to Ni allergy are full-Titanium watches. I also seem to remember there was a thread by Victoria about it a few months ago. Thanks for the information I figured that titanium might've been the way to go, but wondered about PVD, and if it might have been a possibility I know that DLC is completely inert. One of its uses is to coat medical implants, so that they won't react with the patient. Thanks, that's interesting to know Might be cheaper for me to suggest a titanium watch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffe007 Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 No, you 'could' have a SS case w/ PVD and use a Ti case back to side step some of the allergy issue. Myself, I have a slight allergy to nickel. Only really becomes an issue if and when I sweat under it. Otherwise, Im okay. Now, I know that the higher in 'grade' one goes in stainless steel, (ie 316L, 4xx, etc.) the less nickel there is in the metal. of course, the engineer who toldme that could have been dead wrong. But, my suggestion is efinetely, Titanium. Lastly, the watch that I now wear whilst my self-induced screwed rep PAM 1950 is being fixed [i swapped the mov't from the Ti moel i have and when I attempted to re-install the now shiny gold hands, i pretty much butchered them! Ill get new ones and this time also get an actual 'hand putter on'er thingy' to install the new hands.] due to the crown not staying in whe trying to change the time [prolly the stem being too short & not staying in and not allowing for the time to be adjusted. one can wind it but one can not change the time], is my new Gen. 6498-driven, Swiss Army Ambassador and it's made of either 316L or 440 (i think that's the 3 but I can't remember) stanless and I have no probs with my skin breaking out. Hope to hear of some resolution! JEFFE007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old skool Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Very informative thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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