Thin Crowns And Other Assorted Problems.....i Ask Why?

[mhinagoya]

What a brain trust - an incredible amount of information from people on the ground.

Where does Japan fit into this rep cultural, economic issue? Are reps manufactured in Japan? If so, how do they compare to the Chinese?

Bill

I haven't spent as much time in Japan as I have in Taiwan, but the mindset seems to be very close. Because of the mature nature of Japan's industrial base and given the constraints of the culture, Japan and the Japanese (as a group) seem to be much more in line with the western views on intellectual property. That being said, knockoffs (of all kinds) are easily found in Japan, but not out in the open, very much like Taiwan. In contrast, the private citizen has much the same attitude toward knockoffs as the Taiwanese. At least, that was my impression.

The Japanese economy would prevent rep production, even if it was encouraged and subsidized by the government. It's too labor intensive and the products wouldn't garner a high enough profit margin. There is far too much money in building the genuine article for the Japanese to mess with knockoffs. Look at Seiko, Citizen, Casio, etc.

[TJGladeRaider]

I haven't spent as much time in Japan as I have in Taiwan, but the mindset seems to be very close. Because of the mature nature of Japan's industrial base and given the constraints of the culture, Japan and the Japanese (as a group) seem to be much more in line with the western views on intellectual property. That being said, knockoffs (of all kinds) are easily found in Japan, but not out in the open, very much like Taiwan. In contrast, the private citizen has much the same attitude toward knockoffs as the Taiwanese. At least, that was my impression.

The Japanese economy would prevent rep production, even if it was encouraged and subsidized by the government. It's too labor intensive and the products wouldn't garner a high enough profit margin. There is far too much money in building the genuine article for the Japanese to mess with knockoffs. Look at Seiko, Citizen, Casio, etc.

That SEIKO Marine Master Springdrive is on my gen list. I think that is an awesome piece; I am just hoping the price comes down one day.

Bill

[archibald]

on here know, I was a single parent with four children for many years -- I did not accept a dime from her.

... a basic understanding of the counterfeit industry should make it clear why the deliberate flaw concept is impossible. These people are independent, diverse and disconnected - and the players change from day to day. There is no person, or group, with whom a Chinese Official could work out a deal, or reach an understanding with.

Bill

I don't think anyone would assert there is any kind of codified or even formal "deal" between anyone. As I understand it the relationship is this: "If we catch you making reps that do not afford us this (im)plausible deniability, we will shut you down." It's up to the "players,"whomever they are on a given day, to decide if they'll push their luck, and what happens to people who do push their luck it depends upon the dilligence of the Chinese authorities.

Frankly, I just can't think of response to the "impossibility" of intentional flaws. It's just contrary to reality. "Those trees may look green, but here, let me explain why they're not..." As numerous posters have pointed out: You make MBW's for 10 years and you never notice Rolex starts with an "R?"

It would be interested to hear your thoughts about why the Chinese are incapable of making a correct crown in any of the 167 versions of 44mm PAMs, but western amateiurs can get it right.

It seems to me you can argue why repmakers include flaws in their reps, but to argue that they don't, because the practice doesn't fit your understanding of the chinese approach to international intellectual property law, is just silly.

[kanerich]

What a brain trust - an incredible amount of information from people on the ground.

Where does Japan fit into this rep cultural, economic issue? Are reps manufactured in Japan? If so, how do they compare to the Chinese?

Bill

I absolutely agree with you, just pitching in my two cents about the situation in China. My point is simply to further illustrate that we can't judge what mainland Chinese do in their own market as right and wrong, legal or illegal, by our legal or cultural standards. They just have different rules and concerns over there.

Rolex makes the best Subs.

Toyota also lost a trademark suit (a Chinese company used a very, very similar interconnected loop logo). Part of the reasoning of the decision? Again, Toyota wasn't really that well known so there was no harm even if the logos were similar. If frigging TOYOTA and CHEVY are too small fry to get trademark protection, it's hard to see exactly which companies can be comfortable with their IP in China.

Asia is still behind the curve in a lot of ways . . . Korea basically was an IP anarchy well into the 1980's and even now, if you are a patent holder who is not exploiting the patent in Korea, you only get an injunction, no damages if someone steals it and makes a ton of money in Korea . . . you're not using it in our country, who gives a crap is the Korean government's attitude. At a consumer level, it's still relatively easy to get fakes in Korea but I don't recommend it, the prices aren't particularly good, nor is the quality. We're talking the $30-50 Faulexes for $150. If you want American movies for 3 bucks there's plenty of that.

Japan is further along the curve, but more theoretically than practically. Personal IP piracy is rampant here, and software piracy is much higher than in western countries (around 80%, closer to China than the US or Western Europe). However, the government obviously has a lot more control over what the private sector does, so laws have been passed making service providers liable for domestic internet auction fraud and counterfeit trafficking which has really reduced openly illegal transactions compared to the recent past. A ton of IP laws have been passed and a specializes IP court instituted in 2005. But they have a ways to go before they become a society that understands IP . . . the University I attend has what is generally considered the best or second best law department in Japan, yet they do not have one IP law expert on the permanent faculty. Unthinkable in the US.

Domestic sweatshops cranking out fake Rolexes might exist but I doubt it . . . it's a lot cheaper and easier to just smuggle them in from China and Korea considering the tighter government control and exorbitant cost of labor and materials. I do see fake clothes and bags from China pretty often (and not in back alley, respectable mom and pop shops), much more so actually than I did in the US which was surprising.

Edited July 27, 2006 by kanerich