mhinagoya

I first met TTK in the UK over a fine dinner. We spent the evening laughing and having one of the most enjoyable conversations I have ever experienced. On a couple of other business trips, I spent several days with him in Thailand knocking around. I was privileged to meet his lady, be invited to his home, and in general, had a wonderful time. My wife found him to be "Delightful", and "Elegant". The Neil/TTK that everyone knew on the boards bears no resemblance to the real man and it pains me that his illness has cost him a leg. I believe I know where to find him and the next time I am in the UK, I will again enjoy the company of an old friend. If someone didn't get what they paid for, you may rest assured that it wasn't because he didn't ship it. Neil is an honest man. He played with watches for entertainment, he didn't need the money. I even met some of his suppliers in Thailand. By the way, he speaks pretty good Thai. He could be caustic when seated at a keyboard. The vast majority of it was dry humor. It just took a bit of insight to realize it. For those of you fortunate enough to have spoken to Neil (or will speak to Neil), you have met a true gentleman and a rare/outstanding character. Bill.

TTK Be careful my dear friend. You may find yourself becoming philosophically Buddhist in your dotage. Bill.

It's been a few years, but unless the formula for super glue has changed, this should work. I have 'dissolved' super glue, just by putting it in the presence of ammonia. You don't have to soak it in ammonia or even get it wet, just put it in a closed container (Glass jar) with some household ammonia and let it sit. The super glue will just fall apart. Usually overnight will do the trick. Ammonia is a gas. Household ammonia is that gas dissolved in water, usually with some detergent added. If left to sit, household ammonia will 'offgas' and that is where the delightful smell comes from. I wouldn't try using this trick to get super glue off your skin. Ammonia is pretty hard on skin. Bill.

Two options that I know of: Option 1 (easy and cheap). Stop by a local dive shop and pick up a small container of silicone grease. Use that. Option 2 (more difficult and way more expensive). Search online for Crystolube 111. This is a halon based lubricant that contains molecular teflon. The silicone grease will work well, but will have to be re-done periodically, as it can be washed away eventually. Temperature sensitive (will melt pretty easy). The Crystolube 111 is fantastic and is not affected by soap, water, or petroleum based products. Get it on your fingers and you will have to wipe it away. It is oxygen safe. Not temperature sensitive. Either of these two products are as good as it gets for lubricating "O" rings and sub bezels. I use Crystolube. Bill.

I have the watch winder that is shown in the amazon URL. I bought it while I was in Taiwan. It has shredded one of the drive belts, but that is no big deal, as they are just "O" rings. When I get around to it, I will pick up another one and it will be good as new. Obviously, this winder does not like extremely heavy watches. They have plastic drive gears and are noisy, but after I greased the gears, it was amazingly quiet. They are screwed together and easy to work on. If you can work a screw driver, are willing to 'grease the transmission' and can drive to the local hardware store, then you can address about any issues you may have with one of these. Watches the size of a sub will be no problem. By the way, I paid about $65 USD in Taiwan. The current sale price on Amazon is a steal. Bill.

I grew up in the retail business, so I will start out by admitting that my post is biased. In my opinion; As to the manufacturing cost of a particular item, it is none of the consumer's business. It is up to the consumer to look at the product, assess the value, then determine for themselves if the price is fair and/or warranted. Luxury items, by definition, are 'worth' whatever the market will bear. What the market will bear has nothing whatsoever to do with manufacturing and distribution costs, nor does it have anything to do with risk. It has to do with perceived value and desirability. If you do not believe this, then you are more than welcome to go ask some of the luxury watch manufacturers about it. The sellers on this board have no responsibility to sell anything to anyone. They don't even have a responsibility to be here. The consumers here have the right to complain about price and the sellers have the right to ignore them or to make concessions. The consumers here do not have a right to commit character assassination because they

I don't post much, but I can't leave this one alone. Sorry guys. I enjoy watches because they are stunning examples of precision mechanical contrivances. As such, I think enough of them to have them serviced on a reasonable schedule. It is a matter of my appreciation for the mechanism, not the money involved. A watch isn

Gentlemen. Watches are toys, just like bass boats and motorcycles. People pour money on toys because it makes them smile. No further justification is necessary or warranted. Life would be unbearably austere if we only had what we truly needed. By the way: As has been noted, toys do not qualify as investments. The fact that they are toys is reason and justification enough for their existence. JMO Bill.

Well Gentlemen; Pugwash blew the whistle. TTK offered a remedy. Pugwash has taken a bit of a pasting here and there for blowing the whistle (he didn't deserve it). TTK's remedy (good as it may be) has been largely ignored. Admins are watching this thread, as it is the only way they have of assessing the sense of 'right' that the membership holds. This is establishing a facet of 'morality' or 'acceptible behavior' within this community. You are setting the standards here and you are doing it right now. Be plain and keep it simple. Send the message to the Admins that you want them to get. Is yelling "Shame on you" enough? Do you want to establish a three strike rule? Do you wish this would just blow over and be forgotten? Do you want these sellers run out of town on a rail? Do you simply not care one way or the other? Be plain and of few words. It will make life simpler for everyone. Bill.

My wife has spent part of her life as a professional photographer and has even taught photography in college. She is currently shooting a Nikon D200. That being said, most of her shots are taken with a Sony 'purse' size camera. The learning curve with the high-end DSLR cameras is pretty steep. She is still struggling with hers and has had it nearly six months. Yes, the high-end stuff will do some fantastic things and with really good lenses, are nearly beyond belief. However, is it worth it? The wife takes 10 pictures with her 'point and shoot' for every one she takes with the D200. That little camera in her hands is pretty impressive. I am coming to believe that the person holding the camera has at least as much to do with success as the equipment. TTK recommended a certain camera, but when I tried to find one, there were none to be had. That is how we ended up with the Nikon. I bought her several lenses, but now, she only uses two. She uses an 18-200 Zoom with built in vibration reduction that has the focus motor in the lens. She also shoots a 60mm 'micro' lens (Nikon's name for a macro lens). Either is stunning but even with the 60mm, the outfit is heavy. She has tried to teach me how to use a camera and I am bereft of the talent needed to take a photograph. I take 'pictures'. I do use photography in my job (as a communication tool) and have become quite good at it, but that is after taking thousands of photographs and most of them worthless. I photograph inantimate objects under unusual conditions (angles, lighting, macro). I couldn't successfully photograph a child's birthday party at McDonalds. I don't know how. I have come to believe that taking stunning photographs is a talent that has been tempered by learned skills. TTK is a prime example of this. The man has talent and his skills are stunning. Hand him a $100 camera and he would make my pictures with a D200 look pitiful. I can only pass along what my wife has told me. "Buy a camera you like and can afford and shoot it a lot. Shoot everything under every condition you can imagine. Try to get one good picture out of 10." That is her way of telling me to buy tools that fit me and practice till I become proficient with them. Unless you have a lot of natural talent, you are likely to wear the camera out before you reach the limits of its design. Bill.

Attempting to be a bit charitable: If you took the Breitling name and logo off the dial, I doubt that anyone would suspect this watch was a replica. Honestly, it doesn't bear a passing resemblence to anything Breitling has ever made. It's a watch and hopefully, it will tell time. If it makes your friend happy, then he should wear it. I've seen these sold in street markets in Asia and I've watched people buy them. I have no idea why someone would do that, but I've seen it. If you want something really nice, then hang around here. If you just want a watch with a famous name on the dial, there are many to be had for little money but you should be looking elsewhere. These folks will spurn an otherwise excellent copy because the color of the lume is off. Check out the threads where the shade of blue on a TT Sub is discussed. Not whether or not it is blue but the shade of blue, or how much red paint is applied to a second hand and how far up the hand the red is applied. How about the shade of the red printing on a YM dial? Get the picture? Truth be known, perhaps one person out of a thousand would know the difference in most cases, but these folks take their hobby seriously. There are watches to be had that would pass a casual inspection by an authorized dealer. It is a matter of degree. Your friend's watch is at one end of the spectrum (Remember, I'm being kind here). The near perfect clones are at the other end. You decide where you want to fit in that spectrum and act accordingly. Bill.

Somewhere, TTK is sitting back chuckling to himself. I know the gentleman and he likes to go 'fishing'. Guys, I am unaware of a single instance where the manufacturing cost of anything has had any bearing on the market price of said object. The rep watch business is no exception. The watches cost what the dealers charge for them. "Why" doesn't matter. This is a HOBBY. As such, it is a money pit. My wife is in to rubber stamping and scrapbookking. The cost of her money pit is staggering. However, neither she nor I have any illusions about her hobbies. We both know that any money spent is gone with absolutely no hope for return. We both know that when she spends four or five dollars for a little bottle of ink, we are probably paying a 20:1 markup (at least). It doesn't matter. She wants that little bottle of ink and we can afford it. If you can afford what you want, then buy it. Consider the money gone and enjoy your purchase. If you can't afford what you want, then wait till you can or change your 'want'. All this speculation will accomplish nothing except to build resentments toward good people that are trying very hard to help you with your 'hobby' and make a little money in the bargain. Without them, your hobby wouldn't exist. You want a really cheap knockoff? Go buy a $3,000 airline ticket to China and pick it out for yourself (if you can even find what you want). Sorry to sound a bit brutal, but it's not like you can run down to the corner store and buy one of these watches. I lived in Taiwan and I can assure you that finding reps is anything but easy there. It isn't so tough in Mainland China, but it is an accomplishment in Taiwan. Kudos to River and Eddie for sourcing them. Have fun with the hobby and quit worrying about who is making how much on what. It doesn't matter, as without them, the hobby ceases to exist. Bill.

That person is absolutely nuts. I have lived 12 out of the last 15 months in Taiwan. I got home last Friday. The government takes a very dim view of knockoffs. I personally know a man that did two years in the federal pen for selling knockoff watches in Taiwan. Their justice system is blind and swift. No plea bargains, no judicial leniency, no appeals, no pardons, nada. There are signs along the freeways and in the airport at Taipei that state: Trafficking in drugs carries the death penalty. Through normal channels, arrest to firing squad is 30 days. I reiterate: The person selling knockoff watches on the Taiwan 'Bay' is crazy. By the way, I have seen some stunning watches in Taiwan, but they aren't cheap. I have seen some junk, too. Bill.

I don't believe your comparison is logical or realistic. I can buy a quartz watch at Wal Mart for $20. It will have a movement in it that costs less than $5 to manufacture. The case and strap will cost less than $1 to manufacture. If I buy an ETA sub from one of our dealers, it will have a solid 316 stainless case and bracelet, a sapphire crystal, and a 25 jewel Swiss movement. Go find a watch in a retail establishment that has the same 'attributes' as my ETA sub example, then compare the price of the retail to the rep. The difference in the two prices is called: "Fit, finish, water resistance, distribution, advertising, inventory taxation, sales tax, etc". If you make a 'level playing field' comparison, I believe you will discover (as most of us have) that the rep is a screaming bargain. You can buy the rep, then pay The Zigmeister to make it water tight and fix the fit and finish, and you will still have just a fraction of the cost of the original in your rep. As far as I know, the only marque that the quality/price ratio of the genuine even approaches the ratio of a rep is with Hamilton. Generally speaking, they are 'only' about twice the price of a compariable rep. The Hamiltons are nice watches though. I like my Khaki X-Wind. Bill.

Sorry, double post. B.C.

"What should we expect for a good rep?" That is a fair question, but a legitimate answer may not exist. You paid $200 for a watch. It doesn't matter what kind of watch. What should you expect for that $200? Perhaps a slightly different approach is in order. Pick a mall jewelery store that sells watches, walk in, and see what $200 will buy. That is what you should expect for $200, as that is what the retail market will bear. Does the jewelery store watch have a 25 jewel Swiss movement? Sapphire crystal? Is it made of a solid metal, or is there some plating involved? Ignore the warranty issue as most of our better dealers will replace a defective watch. Had you spent your $200 at the jewelery store, would the watch please you as much as the rep? More? We have a somewhat insane tendency to compare a $200 product to an $8,000 product, feature for feature. In the cold light of reason, this makes absolutely no sense but we do it anyway because it's fun. You specified a value of $200, so let's keep things in perspective. If you really want to know what to expect in a $200 watch, then go look at some $200 watches. It's that simple. If you find reps falling short of the offerings in the retail market, then spend your money at the mall jewelery store. I'm not trying to run you off, but I am trying to give you some perspective. This is just a hobby and these watches are nothing more than 'grown up' toys. I am about to buy a chain and two sprockets for my motorcycle. Those three parts are going to cost far more than $200. I fully expect to wear out / destroy that chain and sprocket set within two years. I don't care because my motorcycle is a toy and I ride it for enjoyment. If you can see these watches as 'sparkly bits' that make you smile (toys), then you will be a lot happier with this hobby. Stop looking at rep watches as an 'heirloom' that you can pass down to your grandchildren. They aren't and they never will be. java script:emoticon('', 'smid_38') Bill.

This type of speculation is entertaining, to say the least. Since we are just having a chat and none of this is serious, I will state that I am inclined to stay with my statement regarding a western inability to understand the business practices of Mainland China. I have a reason. I happen to be in Asia on business and have been here for six months (this trip). A lot of business in Mainland China is a function of the government assuring that jobs are available and as was the case with the old Soviet Union, profit isn't always a part of the objective. Other factors are also involved, and though I have seen them at work, I will openly admit to having no inkling of why some things are done. I have learned to function within this culture but I certainly do not understand it, nor do I ever expect to. Come on guys, let's keep trying to figure out why knockoffs aren't exact duplicates of the originals. It's fun. Bill.

I believe that the reality is some mix of what has been said. I have reason to believe that (for the most part) the accuracy of reps is a function of chance. As has been noted, the people who assemble these watches are not the same people that make the parts. If the person procuring the parts happens to source a bunch of very accurate parts, then someone builds a very accurate watch. In other (rare) cases, parts are sourced for their accuracy and small production runs are made of specific models. I suspect that some of our dealers have something to do with this upon occasion. Some effort is made to build a decent rep, but that effort is limited. In my opinion, there is no conspiracy by anyone to do anything, other than to keep people employed and produce a profit or at least stay in business. Trying to apply western logic to business practices in a communist Asian country is sheer folly. Someone buys parts for an assembly company and that company builds watches from the parts. Someone else sells them. People have jobs and someone probably makes a profit. Sometimes, someone can convince said assembly company to use a very specific set of parts or even convince an individual part making company to build something very specific, especially if they are willing to purchase a 'minimum quantity' of these specific watches. Again, there is no conspiracy. It's just a business, run with a logic that we westerners don't really understand. Bill.

Take a look at Hamilton. I have an X-Wind on my wrist. Nice watch and it has an ETA 7750 inside. These are available online for around $800 US Dollars. Other Hamiltons with the 7750 are available for even less. Yes, I own reps but I wear a gen most of the time. I like the 7750 and I like the X-Wind. Besides, I travel a lot and have no worries when walking through customs with this on my arm. Keeps good time too (about 2 seconds a day). Bill.

I haven't spent as much time in Japan as I have in Taiwan, but the mindset seems to be very close. Because of the mature nature of Japan's industrial base and given the constraints of the culture, Japan and the Japanese (as a group) seem to be much more in line with the western views on intellectual property. That being said, knockoffs (of all kinds) are easily found in Japan, but not out in the open, very much like Taiwan. In contrast, the private citizen has much the same attitude toward knockoffs as the Taiwanese. At least, that was my impression. The Japanese economy would prevent rep production, even if it was encouraged and subsidized by the government. It's too labor intensive and the products wouldn't garner a high enough profit margin. There is far too much money in building the genuine article for the Japanese to mess with knockoffs. Look at Seiko, Citizen, Casio, etc.

I am an American, currently living and working in Taiwan. A lot of what is being discussed in this thread looks like cultural differences to me. Taiwan is a democratic country with a free market economy, not unlike that of the United States. Much of Taiwan's government and economy is patterned after the U.S. Yet, even in Taiwan, intellectual property is viewed differently than it is in the West. Doing business is viewed differently as well. I have a friend (American ex-pat) that owns a furniture manufacturing firm here. He often has to bid against similar companies on the mainland. In more than one case, the mainland Chinese company has bid the contract for the shipping costs. Yes, you read that right. They gave the furniture away. So why did they sell furniture at a substantial loss? Well, it kept people working didn't it? Many companies on the mainland are 'back door' funded by the government and they operate to provide jobs, income, and exports to the west. When they go bankrupt, they change the name on the building (and sometimes the address, but they don't move) and open up again with fresh funding. The change on the building is usually done on the weekend so no one has to miss work. There is no doubt in my mind that some of the 'bankroll' for some of the watch manufacturers comes from the government. China is a COMMUNIST country. One of their top objectives is to see that people have jobs. The watch business is huge because it is a largely 'manual' operation and the Chinese have lots of manual labor available. The product is small, requires very little in the way of resources, and has a fairly high 'per unit' value. Watches are nearly ideal (for production and export) within the constraints of China's industrial base. In stark contrast, the Taiwanese government is deadly serious about intellectual property and counterfeit goods. You don't get a slap on the hand for making knockoffs here, you do prison time. You can even be sent to prison for selling knockoffs (of anything). The cultural part I mentioned only becomes evident when you talk to an individual about knockoffs or "copies" as they call them. They smile and say 'is copy'. They know the difference and find it amusing that anyone would ever try to pass a 'copy' off as an original. They see a 'copy' as a novelty, sort of a physical characture of the original. I honestly believe that they have no concept of the idea that using someone else's trademark on a 'copy' might harm the trademark owner. In this society, people that can afford the original buy the original. Copies are bought more for their entertainment value than anything else. Point: One of the guys I work with wears a Seiko watch. He could have bought a fantastic Rollie knockoff for about the same money he paid for the Seiko, but the Seiko was an 'original'. This is a cultural mindset that extends to the mainland. You can see kids working in a 7-11 that are wearing a fully diamond encrusted, gold plated, day-date complete with rolly trademark. No one in their right mind would ever believe that the watch was genuine. I asked one of said kids why he bought the watch and he replied "Pretty. Girls like it". One other thing to consider about China. In a communist country, the government owns all intellectual property. So, intellectual property is available to everyone. Why don't two businesses, side by side, have the same name? In some places they do. In most cases, the business owners agree not to use the same name. It's a 'gentleman's agreement' which is done out of culturally enforced respect. The cultural differences will always be there. The 'feeling' associated with intellectual property will always be different between the east and the west. From what I have seen, it will always be an uncomfortable truce but the issue will never be resolved using western law. The Chinese just can't relate to it enough to accept it. Bill.

It's odd that this should come up. I am currently working in Taiwan. Yesterday, I was talking to a friend about having a watch custom built. This friend builds those TW watches that aren't built in Taiwan (everyone seems to think they are built in Mainland China). My question was about having a watch put together from parts I select with a 'no name' or 'bogus name' dial. I want the styling and the quality, but I don't want the potential customs hassles. So, why do I buy Reps? Because the same level of quality isn't available from a 'name brand' for anywhere near the same money. I can buy a rep sub with an ETA movement here for about what you guys are paying when you order from one of our dealers. I can't walk into an AD and buy a stainless steel watch with sapphire crystal and ETA movement for anywhere the same money. I have a genuine Hamilton X-Wind on my arm at the moment. It has a 7750 movement in it. This is an ETA 7750 with a beautiful finish. I didn't buy the Hamilton so people would see a Hamilton on my arm. I bought the watch because it had a good 7750 movement and it wasn't a great deal more than a rep of something else with that same movement. I buy reps because I like the cosmetics/design and I want a good movement in them. I cannot approach a similar 'open market' watch at the price of a rep. I'm not out to deceive anyone because I don't care what they think of my watch. I have to like it. No one else does. Bill.

I am partial to the Conrad in Hong Kong. The Peninsula in Kowloon would probably be better. The Conrad actually sits in a huge shopping mall that even has a subway station in the mall (Admiralty Station). You can go from the airport to the shopping mall by train and subway. Bill.

Arden. 18K, ETA, Stainless and rose gold. Genuine (My wife's).

Hamilton X-Wind (genuine).