automatico

"I dont really agree with this VRF post." Me neither. The vast majority of VRF types probably believe if it is not signed 'rolex' that it is not any good, no matter what it is. "A good aftermarket crystal will pass a pressure test. I have done it many times with my watchmaker friend and his rolex pressure testers. Plexiglass is plexiglass. As long as its a proper spec crystal and fit the watch, it will pass pressure test." I have also found this to be true. I can usually tell ahead of the test if a certain crystal might cause trouble....too loose or too tight on the case, bezel too tight or too loose when pressed over the crystal etc. Some crystal material is brittle and some is not...I have seen some crystals that you can twist a quarter turn and not crack, and some that crack with just a slight twist. Brittle crystals will often have tiny cracks running from the bottom edge of the crystal skirt up to the top edge of the crystal retaining bezel. These cracks are hard to spot, especially on watches with rotating bezels that cover the crystal retaining bezel. You can look straight down around the edge of the crystal (mounted on the watch) with a 10x loupe and bright light to find the cracks. Before installing a crystal, look for nicks or scratches on the case neck where the crystal mounts on the case. If someone has pushed a blade too deep under the crystal retaining bezel and pried up on the retaining bezel, they can make scratches and nicks that will cause a leak. Also look for case corrosion around the case neck etc.

VRF and RWG..."Its just not the same... mood." Would I rather be at Daytona Bike Week with VRF stiffs or RWG guys? That's a stupid question. VRF stiff: "Don't touch my Beemer!" Biker Guy: "Your what?" "C'mere boy, I'm gonna whup your skinny azz after I get done puttin' your watch on."

Nanuq...I remember that. A few backfired on the guy, cracked etc. A suspicious poster or two even went so far as to question the origin of them later on. I have some old rolex crystals in green and white unsealed paper rolex USA envelopes that I bought from a rolex AD and there is nothing to keep anyone from putting no name crystals in them. I know they are genuine but can not prove it (to sell only the crystal) so I use them for replacements. Also heard there are fake rolex crystals in fake sealed green letter 'rolex' plastic bags (red letters for tooter).

"I love how they pan aftermarket (Clark) crystals. I have never had a WR issue, quality, or fit issue with a Clark or Sternkruz." Me neither. I bet many of these guys bought aftmkt crystals in 'rolex' packages and paid a LOT of $$ never knowing the difference. Same guys probably have a 1520/1570/75 with aftmkt stem, winding rotor axle, mainspring, center wheel, fourth wheel, CP, intermediate wheel (in autowind assembly), aftmkt case tube, gaskets etc...carefully cleaned with Ronson's and oiled with 3 in 1. ...and they all wonder why their rolex smells like a Zippo lighter. No one even cared about this until the internet started making 'experts' out of all these fools. I started seeing them in droves at watch shows about 15 years ago...1000 questions, no answers, and not a clue. "If it is not Rolex it must be junk, right?" Dat's wat ah reed on da internut. Imho todays 'Macho Watcho' is a G Shock, not a fragile, pricey, $lickdick rolex. Hee Haw! Btw, I've had good luck with GS crystals for years. ...but I'm still not goofy enough (yet) to jump in the water wearing a $5k "no parts for you!" wristwatch.

"True story. I know someone close who owns a gen 2 tone Cartier Santos. He got it from Tourneau back when the store used to send out photocopies (late 80s) of their inventory for sale." I bought a new tutone (Eta) quartz Santos from Alan Marcus & Co, Washington DC in 1992 for $1725. Alan Marcus & Co sent out little 12 or 18 page full color brochures back then too. Traded it for a 'like new' tutone (7750) Breitling Chronomat on a signed strap/deployant in July 1994. Iirc the Santos was made under contract by Ebel back then. Now I have an all steel replica quartz Santos with a Hattori (Seiko) movement that is virtually identical and cost $99. Made under contract in a back room somewhere in HK.

"I think the 16610 is the very last of the great Rolex subs, classic in fit and function. The ceramics are horrific disjointed looking pieces of bling." +1 "I think the 16610 was the natural evolution of the Submariner—though the 116610 is a bridge too far." +1 VINTAGE BABY! it shows an appreciation for the pedigree, not just some trendy wrist jewelry" +1 The 1680, 16800, and 16610 are certainly classics. I never really warmed up to 'bezel watches' for an everyday watch so my favorite rolex to actually wear has never changed...slow set steel DJ, same one for 40 years (plus a few along the way). My favorite bezel watches are 1675, 5512, 5513, 1680 in that order. I have them all but only the 1675 is all genuine. Just can't get used to 'top hat' crystals on 1680.

"I actually tried to get it off but it wouldn't budge!" It has similar rotating bezel construction as F520117 'noobs' so the bezel will be very hard to remove by prying it off without damage. The only way I found to remove a 'noob' bezel without damage is: 1...remove the bezel insert from the top if possible 2...if not possible from the top, you can remove the bezel insert by... a...remove the movement b...remove the crystal by pushing it out from the bottom c...remove the bezel insert from the top (easy now because of all the extra room around it) 3...use a piece of single edge razor blade about 6 or 8mm wide to go between the bezel and case, run it around between the bezel and case (sharp end leading) to unseat the bezel spring from the case. Once the spring starts to come out of the groove in the case, you can pull up on the bezel a little at a time until it pops off. It's a lot easier than it sounds.

"My latest interaction with UPS was a disaster." I have gone a round or two with them and I am not a fan of UPS and FedEx either but they are more efficient as far as making a profit.

"The reason they can get away with it, and have been for a while is they are a business, and they can control who they sell to. If they don't like what a AD is doing, or they suspect he is selling parts secondhand, they as a company have the right to shut off his parts account. It's happened in a lot of other industries, where dealers were selling below the MSRP, which is fine until another dealer down the street rats you out, and then the manufacturer will probably warn you first, but if it continues, they may well refuse to sell to you." Substitute the brand name rolex for brand names Harley Davidson, Maytag, Dell, Master Craft, Yamaha, American Standard, Sony, and thousands of others and this rolex type BS simply would not fly. How many 'consumers' would be dumb enough to go along with it? Not many I bet. There would be class action lawsuits everywhere. It goes on because no one really cares (except watchnuts) if rolex parts are available to the guy down the street or not. This same 'consumer' would raise He-ll to the 99th level though if he had to call the Maytag man at $60/hour plus a $100 house call to do a 10 minute repair with a $100 part just because the $100 part (that really should be $10) is not available anywhere else.. RUSA is in violation (of the intent) of Federal Trade Commission rules but they beat it in court a few years ago by referring to a law on the books for 50+ years that pertains to watch companies not having to sell parts to the trade in order to protect their brand. The FTC let it stand but if it was tested in court again with a lot of $$ behind it, you can bet rUSA would lose the case. "It's happened in a lot of other industries, where dealers were selling below the MSRP..." Forcing retailers to sell at MSPR is illegal in the USA. Rolex USA simply uses threats to manipulate their authorized dealers. When I worked part time in MC shops, the distributors (Japan brands) allowed one 'whoredealer' in the sales area. 'W-dealer' = low overhead shop with big discounts and not much service. Why? Because it increased overall sales. The local 'w-dealer' went busted a year ago because of the sorry economy so now bargain hunters have to know someone at the local dealer or travel out of the area for a good deal. The average Japan MC and ATV only has an average markup of 16% so after a year or so of floor plan interest, they really want rid of it so you can get a bargain if you can find out what has been in stock the longest. Many times they will turn them loose at cost and count on the 'hold back' for profit. 'Hold back' = 3% of the dealer cost of every unit sold. It is paid the following year in one whack. I remember a few years ago when Harley D threatened a Japanese MC brand (Kawasaki? Yamaha? can not remember) about their 'sound'. HD claimed the Japan brand was making motorcycles with a 'sound' similar to HD and the HD 'sound' was exclusive etc, etc. The Japan company told them to shut up before they buy them out and flush them down the commode. They shut up. Rolex USA will sell parts like nickels falling out of a Las Vegas slot machine if the right guys ever get them in court. Ka-ching!

"The private sector is so iffy half the time, it's always for the good of the company before it is the good of the customers." "I prefer FedEx or UPS..." Private sector = FedEx and UPS = get 'er done and make a profit. Government agency = USPS = waste and inefficiency. Email, FedEx and UPS have basically killed the USPS, leaving them with first class mail, registered/certified mail, junk mail, a few packages...and the postal worker's union. Their $$ shortfall was caused this time around by not having enough money to pay for their retirememt/healthcare agreement to meet future obligations, some so far into the future that the workers to be covered have not even been hired yet. I do not now and never have worked for any Guvement agency. I did work for two first class transportation companies that did an efficient job while making a lot of $$, both in business over 100 years.

Priority Mail package California to TN 9-30-12 to 10-11-12. Pony Express was faster. FedEx....When it absolutely, positively has to get there...sometime.

Q..."Looking for recommendations and ideas on how to get gen Rolex items like dials, bezels, hands, and other parts." A..."You might as well ask for the keys to Ft Knox!! Rolex has clamped down on their parts to the point that they are almost unobtainable. Most of the watchmakers who have parts accounts with Rolex will not sell you anything out the back door,as Rolex has no qualms about closing their accounts for parts. Even guys here on the forum that have had good relations with Rolex watchmakers cannot get parts anymore,at least not in the USA. Occasionally parts come up on the parts sales forum.Vintage parts are easier to find, but quite expensive. The Vintage Rolex Marketplace is the best place to look for vintage parts." panerai153 is right. Repair shops that no longer work on rolex watches may have a few (vintage) movement parts and a crown or crystal but now parts for modern watches are getting hard to find. Dials, hands, bracelets, cases etc come up on eBay now and then but lately it seems like prices have been higher than usual. Movement parts come up on eBay too but prices are often 2x higher than they used to be. It's a losing battle and even if you find an all genuine rolex for a good price, you are still at the mercy of rwc for parts and will be forced to pay nose bleed prices for labor from independents or 'factory' service. All rolex watches need parts and service, they are not much more reliable than mechanical watches of the past...that's why they have the largest parts/repair service network in the world. The good news (depending on perspective) is that replicas have come a long way and 'high grade' examples are 75% of the watch for 5% of the price. Times sure have changed...genuine rolex watches are for selling or parting out, not to wear. Ha!

"So, after careful thought and study I decide to buy an ingod44 2 liner. I go to their website. I choose the dial, I create an account, I try to pay. It says - sorry ingod44 is unable to accept money. Return to merchant. Jeez I don't effing believe this. The bracelet I want is out of stock and the dial I want I can't pay for! Anybody else had these problems or is it just me?" It's hard to believe all right. Same thing happened to me about three weeks ago when I tried to buy two dials. Either you are open for business or you are not. If not, fold your tent and get out of Dodge City. Business is business. http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=mcsaoff&va=dodge+city

"for a 1680 i dont think there is a better dial than a white MBW dial" Agree on the MBW white dial. "for a red then a yuki maybe is the best but i think an expert will spot it as if they are an expert then they will know the red sub" Agree again and Higho's red dial looks real good too. Got a Yuki 5512 dial last week that looks very good although the paint lays flat. The markers are good. 'Flat paint' is fine but many genuine dials have paint that 'stands up' because the paint used on the pad printer tended to stand up rather than lay flat. From my little bit of greenhorn experience in genspec reproduction dials: The best 5513 dial I have seen up close was from IG44. Paint was bright, crisp, and stood up. Had slight serifs at luminous marker tips like many genuine dials...similar to eBay item number 180945690584. 1655 dials are hit or miss. Usually miss. One thing in their favor is all the rough genuine dials you see today on $15k 1655 watches. Some good 1016 dials. Some bad. I have one good example with smaller 3-6-9 like earlier dials but do not know where it came from. Here is a pic of a genuine early 1016: http://www.secondtimearoundwatchco.com/watches-for-sale/rolex/explorer-i/6257 Reality knocks... Otoh, I have a few no date 'COMEX' etc dials that I bought from 'Paul' about 10 years ago for $10 (ten!) each that are pretty good too. Now i'm all revved up to get one running.

"automatico: Have you checked between the seat cushions?" I found it hanging on a hook under the parts cabinet mounted above my workbench. No telling how long it's been there.

"...the 14270 had a limited version "Blackout" (dial) I have an Exp 14270 that I got from Watchlover David 10+ years ago and it has a blackout dial, lug holes etc but the lug holes had to be drilled out to the correct size...they were drilled straight through the lugs to start with though. Also got a 'cream dial' Exp II from someone (River? can't remember) back then that looks pretty good. It even had silvertone surrounds on the markers like genuine where most had black surrounds. "The dial actually states "Swiss made". Historically, the Explorer 1016 has "Swiss", "Swiss- T<25". Even the new service dials have "Swiss- T<25" written on them." They probably copied a later Luminova replacement dial. That's Ok because a lot of watches have them now. I have a replacement Luminova dial with T-25 but I got it before they went to 'swiss made'. "Inspecting the Lug holes a bit closer, I realised they do not lie on the same axis. Meaning a completely new drill through would result in bracelet misalignment and crooked holes." I have seen this in a lot of later cases. I drilled a few out to 1.3mm and used a slightly curved springbar with good results. Sometimes the curved sb will cause trouble getting them through the connecting link in the bracelet. They always end up looking fine after they are installed though. If you do not curve the sb, the 'plugs' (ends) may bind and not pass all the way through the lug holes. The 1016 is my all time favorite rolex. I would wear mine if I could find it...

I have made a few sets of connecting links using stainless 316L sheet metal from onlinemetals com and various styles of 'chain nose' pliers...'chain nose' pliers are basically smooth jaw needle nose pliers. Get sheet metal a little bit thicker than the original connecting links if you need more metal to allow for smoothing and brush finishing the finished links...much thicker and it might bind on the bracelet center link though. Cut a piece of metal and size it to the exact width, then bend it around the round jaws of the 'chain nose' pliers. It will take a few (or many) tries but the cost is low and you can alter the overall length of the links to suit different applications. Because the space between the top and bottom of the connecting link is so close, I had to modify a set of pliers by grinding the tops of the jaws down and polishing them. I use cheapo pliers as they will do the job and I did not want to start grinding on $40 pliers. You can cut the blanks to size with a 'jeweler's saw' or cut-off disc in a Dremel tool...I have better luck with a cut-off disc because the saw blades are too easy to break. You can even use tin snips but they will sometimes bend the metal. Scribe a line on the sheet metal just a hair wider than needed and cut outside the line. After you get the blank roughed out, size it exactly on a file etc and start bending. If the ends overlap after bending, you can cut them down with a cut-off wheel. I use 'duck bill' pliers to close the links (when installing them) and smooth out a slight groove inside both jaws with Cratex to keep the pliers from slipping on the links. Closing the links with 'duck bill' pliers can also put a slight bow in the top of the link if needed. I have a couple folded oyster bracelets from Mary and had to force a tapered punch through the connecting links to allow 2mm springbars to pass through. I left the original connecting links in place and because the soldered tubes in the hoods would not line up with the lug holes (DW 5513 case), I removed the tubes and let the bracelet hold the hoods against the case. It works Ok and is about the same as a genuine rivet style bracelet with floppy hoods. I figure old bracelets are supposed to be floppy anyway.

Fxr Andy is right. You might start reading and go back a few years in the posts in the rolex area (where there is a lot of debate on 21j vs 25j, swiss originals vs asian clones, Swiss 7750 vs Asian 7750 etc). It will take a while but in a few hours you should be able to get a handle on the basic differences. One thing that will always make these choices harder is the condition of the movement because there is very little QC in replicas and many watches will have used and/or dirty movements. Something else is the low cost of Asian 21j NN, DG etc movements compared to having a swiss eta repaired because when a 21j example acts up is is usually cheaper to r/r the movement rather than have it repaired. Quartz is quartz and my experiences with quality brands...Citizen/Miyota, Seiko/Hattori, Harley Ronda, Eta etc has all been good. If I was in the market for a replica TAG Link for example, I would go for quartz because of the hassles of owning an automatic... Having to wear it to make it run (or buy a winder). Runs down in a day or so if not worn. Have to find am or pm and set the date after run down. Wear on crown, tube, internal parts from winding/setting. High priced repairs and parts..batteries are a lot cheaper than overhauls. Mechanicals are not very rugged when compared to quartz, no matter what rolex owners say. Ha!

"If this situation doesn't resolve Itself I think a set up for donations would be In the true spirit of RWG. I would be happy to contribute." I will put some $$ toward the cause too as I have been 'caught in the middle' on a few watch repairs. We can give this issue time to see where it is going and then go from there. I know exactly how it feels because of a few problems that were not my fault. Because of this, I will never take another rolex or high value watch in for repair. When you take another person's watch in for repair (or out of their sight for inspection), anything that is wrong or goes wrong becomes your problem. If the owner is a dum-dum or a crook they can claim you broke their watch and what you found wrong was not a problem before they brough it in. There are exceptions of course...rust, melted gaskets etc but they must be diagnosed immediately while the owner is present. One example: I took in an old vintage rectangular snap-back sub seconds rolex that 'could not be fixed'. The owner said it just quit running and the repair shop he took it to told him "It can not be repaired." (I took it in from a jewelry store that I did some work for) I looked in it and the 'repair shop' had robbed or lost the hour wheel etc under the dial and cemented the hands to a cp and hour wheel from a ufo watch of some sort...and the balance staff was broken (the initial problem I guess). The hands could not be set but the owner later claimed he did not notice. When the owner was told what was wrong, he claimed I robbed the parts and went into a screaming fit. When asked who the 'repair shop' was, he said it did not matter because it closed and the owner left town...pending indictment for stealing watches on consignment it later turned out.

"A franken sub with gen movement gen case,bezel, dial,crystal,crown and so on would cost over 3000usd unless you are very lucky" I listed the parts/cost of my '1680' a few times and can not remember exactly how much it cost now but here is a close estimate: non hack 1575 with genuine 'Mk 1' Lemrich dial and hands...$900 iirc. c/o the mvt plus a new mainspring...$25 new stem...$5 DW case...$99 drill the lug holes...$1 for the drill bit aftmkt crystal...$10 aftmkt case tube...$20 used genuine crown...$10 or $12 gaskets...$10 replica hollow mid link bracelet...$50 Clark bezel kit added a couple months ago...$52 total = a bit over $1100 Imho Frankensteins are worth the $$ if they will sell or part out for close to what they cost to make. "I believe in years to come a Franken will have a high value of their own and become a mainsteam collecting item and the closer to the gen higher the price tag." I believe so too.

GS crystal Company will custom make an order of them but I do not know the minimum. From their catalog: Optical quality plastic... Our molded products and products manufactured from sheet material are manufactured with only the highest quality raw material. To have a custom design quoted: Please provide G-S with an engineering drawing or a sketch showing all dimensions in millimeters. Our design review process includes an engineering review for manufacturability, recommendations for design revisions, if necessary, and a detailed quote. We can generally supply a quote from an engineering drawing or sketch within 3-5 days. It is possible to create an engineering drawing from a scratched or damaged part, as long as all dimensions can be derived from the sample. Call for minimum order quantity: Mineral glass: Small quantity prototype orders or production quantities of 50 or more. Sapphire: 50 pieces or more. Plastic: Dependent on design. Call for more information... G-S Supplies, Inc. 1150 University Ave Suite 5 Rochester NY 14607 800.295.3050 [*]They might have a 25-128 available.

"Fantastic stuff automatico. It's amazing what can be achieved with knowledge such as yours. If only I had a small slice of it." Thanks but I'm not a good as I talk...

"16200 franken datejust. 16200 case Gen dial TC datewheel ETA 2824 or 36 I've been told they can be had for less than a grand. Even less if you don't go with the gen case. But a gen dial can make it seem quite authentic." I made up a few of these except mine were tutones rather than all steel. Here is what I use most of the time: donor replica watch with ST6 that will accept genuine crystal...around $100 used genuine or aft/mkt 14k or 18k bezel...$125 to $200 StarTime sapphire crystal and gasket...$35 or $40 genuine dial for around $100 or so but mostly use the replica dial from the donor watch because they are fine for these projects replica date wheel from donor (black on gold for gold and black dials, black on white for white, silver etc dials Aftmkt case tube...$6 gaskets/case clamps/springbars etc...$15 Used genuine crown...$25 average used eta 2836...around $50 + a few bucks for a mainspring and c/o it myself total around $500, $100 +/- more with genuine dial If the donor watch bracelet is used, the cost stays the same. Where I lucked up was buying a bunch of first class replica tutone DJ 8 or 10 years ago. They were the same as what came with swissetas and sapphire crystals but they had Seagull ST6 and MG crystals. The dials had two sets of dial feet and they clipped the eta dial feet off. The bracelets were supposed to have 8k centerlinks (gold was a lot cheaper back then) but I seriously doubt it is true. I never had one wear through and they have 'gold' caps soldered over the hoods like genuine though. My guess is they are heavy gold plate over brass centerlinks. The fluted bezels were gold plated stainless steel, oem spec. They test to 3atm+ every time after they are finished. I also made a '1016' using a 16234 case, rolex 1520 and dial from who knows where (can't remember). I later snatched the 1520 out for a '5513' project and stuck a 2846 in it. It has a GS PA464 64C crystal and homemade bezel with drilled lugs and shortened submariner springbars. After I c/o the 2846 and put it in the '1016' the movement would stop every now and then and I could not figure out what was wrong because it ran fine out of the case. I finally found that it was the case clamp screws...they stopped the watch when tightened up. Loosen them and the watch ran fine. I swapped them out with another set the same size (?) and the watch never missed another lick. DJ and 1016 are easier to make than 1680/5513 and no one ever spots them as replicas. Everyone knows all submariners are fake.

Q..."The puretime gmt master vintage 6542 comes with a "Swiss ETA-2846". Will there be a functioning GMT hand on this watch. A..."Yes. It works the same as the ETA/Asian 2836-2 , just slow beat. I do not believe they are 'Swiss", but really 'Asian', and be aware that it will likely need service regardless." "Gmt hand can be moved in date setting mode, screwing crown backwards. However it does not move with normal movement running... Doa so to speak." There used to be a lot of the earlier asian conversion 24 hour swiss 2836 etc around in GMT and Ex II, maybe you can get one from another member. This is the older design with the 24 hour hand geared to the 12 hour hand that can not be adjusted...the hand stack is always 24H, H, M, S. I have found this type of 24 hour conversion to be the most trouble free of the lot. After you get a proper GMT 2836 movement (most common), you can simply change the 24 hour works over to a 2846 if you want the slower beat movement. If the hands are too close to the dial and/or too close together you may need a longer CP and hour wheel plus a longer sweep second pinion. They mostly used eta 2836 on these non adj GMT conversions, not many 2846. "Perhaps the underlying problem is I only have picked apart and serviced larger manuals, and that autos and chronos scare the sh!t out of me. So here is a good opportunity to break into servicing autos as well." Calendars are worse than auto wind assemblies imho. A/w assemblies are usually not bad at all. Chronographs make my jaws ache. On low buck projects it seems DG GMT movements are Ok but out of the 25 or so that I had (no lie, but a long story), maybe 6 or 7 were good runners...the rest need to be serviced and they all were in 'new' watches. As for service...I would rather c/o 3 swiss etas in the dark, outside, during a thunder storm than one DG. They may be tough and reliable (usually) but they are so cheaply made they are disgusting. The screws are made out of clay and lining everything up under one plate is a hassle. Not to mention the litttle U shaped flying springs.

It has been said that many buy expensive genuine watches to show others they have the money to blow on shiny little trinkets. Well...they do not have the $$ any longer because they blew it on a watch that is probably worth a fraction of what they paid for it. If a 'Fashion Blaster' type of guy can wear a different expensive genuine watch every day...evidently he has/had the buck$. If the same type of guy wears the same watch every day...looks to me like he really does not have the buck$. Maybe what pizzes off many of the genuine watch guys is that the replica watch guys get the same mileage for a fraction of the buck$. (I could wear a different watch every day but they would have to be dollar watches after a few days)