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automatico last won the day on July 19

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  1. Lowered expectations...

    I have spent the last 10 years away from doing hardly any work at all on genuine rolex watches belonging other people because of the 'no parts for you' situation but have recently been talked into working on some 'outsider' watches with cal 15xx movements purchased by 'watch friends'. (With friends like this...Ha!) Have also looked in a lot of genuine watches lately. So...what's new? 1...There is a lot more junk now than there was 10 years ago. 2...A lot more botch jobs are showing up, probably due to high repair prices. 3...A lot of worn out movement parts are still being used in a lot of watches...reversers, rotor axles etc, probably because of 'npfy'. One example: Looked at a 1601 DJ with the hands out of correspondence (hour hand at 12, minute hand at 30 minute mark). It had been dropped, hit on the back, and the minute hand fell down a little bit. The owner cranked the time around later on trying to set it and moved the minute hand out of whack. He also said he had to hand wind it (before the drop) because it would no longer auto wind. He bought it a few months ago and the seller claimed it had been 'recently cleaned'. It looks clean and the balance has good motion so that is probably true. There was a screw jammed between the winding rotor and the case back. Q...Where did it come from? A...It was one of the lower autowind plate screws. Q...How did it get out? A...The whole a/w assembly was loose on the movement along with every other screw I checked from the back side except for the two casing screws. Q...How come? A...Either whoever put it together did not tighten the screws enough or the owner has been mowing, riding his H-D (Ha!) or doing something with a whole lot of shakin' goin' on. Who knows? I'll ask but they never know...or tell. My takeaway from seeing the junk and botch jobs is: 1...If you have a nice genuine vintage rolex or Frankenstein with a good genuine movement...keep it because the pickings are getting very slim and much more expensive. 2...Some of the work is not as good as it used to be, maybe because so many of the better repair guys have left the trade. Maybe they left because of 'npfy'. 3...There ain't no mo affordable vintage rolex parts.
  2. Case closed. Now reopened...

    A few answers: "Are you doing this because of stem height?" Yes. Thought about machining the dial seat a little bit deeper but it may make the case deck too thin so I will try this first. "Why don't you just use a felsa 4007?" Do not have one and am familiar with eta. I have put a few Frankenetas together and they usually work Ok. Most of the time. Thought about an eta 2450. May try one later on but they are 10.5" and the 28xx is 11.5" so I would need to whittle out another spacer. "So, you gonna make a "low beat" 2824? I've never gotten that bored..." I refuse to be outsmarted by a case. This time. The last 20 times do not count. This is all JMB's fault. Having to use a movement no one ever heard of...eta 282446. Btw...the combo movement is together and running.
  3. NEW rep Daytona with 904L steel and a 4130 clone movement!

    There is a lot of mystery about 904L. It goes for $900 to $2500 per ton depending on how much you buy so at $2000 a ton it would make the metal in one watch cost about $2 or so allowing for waste. The more you buy, the cheaper it gets and 904L is nothing special at all. I have some seamless 904L tubing that I had cut for making bezels and a foot of it was a couple dollars. It costs a lot more to machine it than to buy it.
  4. Case closed. Now reopened...

    The JMB '1016' case that is. Finally got around to putting one together. Here is what I decided to use (by trial and error): Swiss eta 2824 plates Swiss eta 2846 (day/date) balance assembly, escape wheel, pallet fork and all train wheels. Remove all D/D parts. Put 2846 balance complete in 2824. Use taller Swiss eta 2846 cp and hour wheel. Standard calendar spacer if needed. I'll take them apart and put one combo movement together and see how it goes and post the results. It will take a while because I have other things to do. PS: Somebody post something, it's getting awful quiet around here.
  5. Oris goes back in time well................

    "IMHO a bit pricey @ $1499 USDs for SW200 but I like!" "Me likey but not enough to spend that kind of coin on it. For that price it's competing with Glycine, Tissot, Waltham and Fortis Marinemaster Super Compressors. Those are dangerous odds." "can't get my arms around the price point as we all agree but this look on the nylon strap well I could get stupid one night..." Yep. I can not climb on their bandwagon, they cost too much...that and the fact their name begins with the letter O. When I think of Oris, I remember all the pin lever junk they cranked out for so many years. Maybe they could come out with a similar watch in a pot metal case with a 1 jewel movement for $79.
  6. Is it is or is it ain't?

    Saw this 1675 for sale on VRF and the bleacher bums bombed it. The rounded lug tops, third class sandpaper job on the lug tips, and no wear on the mid case between the lugs do not help authenticity imho but I can not help but wonder who is this bird referring to when he said: "Well known fake font. I'd like to have better pictures but I got my own idea..." I assume he is referring to the numbers/letters between the lugs. I am not well versed on replica cases because 'close enough' is Ok for me but the remark made me curious.
  7. "I have seen a pair of these at 80usd on Ebay !" ST and a few other USA supply houses have swiss made spring bars identical to oem for less than $2 each. They should be available from watch material supply houses in France too. Your watch probably had lower quality China made spring bars...they are $29.95 for 90 assorted sizes from ST. Rolex does not make their own spring bars. http://www.startimesupply.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=1&Category_Code=1D_Rolex_SBars_Asst&Product_Code=RP23-16613S
  8. Three of my watch-fixer friends were Accutron specialists from the 1960s up until they started disappearing from wrists. All three used the same method to clean dirty index wheels on old 'Rattytrons' without taking them apart (me too): Run a small drop of hairspring cleaner (One Dip etc) down a needle or small oiler onto the index wheel a time or two to rinse the dirt away (do not touch the index wheel teeth if at all possible). If it hums and just will not run, this may get it going. If it does not hum, check the batt (making sure it is 'upside down'), contacts, coils, and circuit. If the watch runs up until the date is changing and stalls out but the second hand still moves (218), it is usually the canon pinion...turn it over. How? remove the hands and dial, then remove the hour wheel and look at it...easy to see how to do it. The 218 quick sets the date, many do not know it and this is why so many canon pinions are loose. Do Not turn the sweep second hand backwards with a brush, tool etc when working around the watch with the movement out of the case or the crystal removed, it might/will bend the index and pawl jewel springs (the springs were supposedly made from hairspring material). Do not leave a running 218 'hacked' for long. If you do much work on them, you will probably need a microscope...and lay off coffee and energy drinks. A regular 214 can be turned into a pretty good Spaceview using Clark's crystal and hands. Sometimes you will need a 'skeletonized' minute chapter ring though. I learned enough about A-trons to get by but will not fool with one now unless I have to. Trivia: Remember what Crocodile Dundee said: "That 218 is not an Accutron. This 214 is an Accutron!" Don Johnson wore a steel 214 Spaceview on 'Nash Bridges'. http://members.iinet.net.au/~fotoplot/acc.htm
  9. Second chance...

    I have posted a few times about the old DW submariner cases with the rounded sides as being 'Pot Belly' cases because the sides are slightly rounded like a DJ making them not as popular as better cartel or MBK cases. Things change but cartel cases are still hit or miss from one order to another, MBK cases are hard to find, and Yuki/Phong cases ain't cheap and ain't getting any cheaper. Well...it turns out DW cases may not be so bad after all. I have been seeing a lot of genuine 5512/13/1680 watches with Pot Belly sides caused by wear and not-so-pro polishing and most are being priced waaay up there now. Examples: http://www.network54.com/Forum/207673/message/1501595158/FS-+Rolex+Submariner+ref.+5513+‘Meters+First’ http://www.network54.com/Forum/207673/message/1454128322/fs-+meters+first+1680+tropical+red+sub+with+box+and+papers+-+%2426%2C000 ($26,000 Shaaazam!!) So...if you have a DW case hidden away in a drawer it might be worth a second chance to make a 'high mileage' project watch or to put up for sale. Matter of fact they would make a very good 'aged' project watch without much aging at all. Pros: high quality finish reasonable prices (usually) case back stamping usually Ok, some have no stamping at all good fit with genuine rlx 1570/75 date movement and 26.5mm dial Cons: case neck usually a hair too small but by using an oem spec bezel kit and swapping aftmkt crystals around, a fix can usually be found case back threads may be oem 30.9mm or non oem 30.4mm, both having the same stamping all cases (all I have seen) are 1680 spec even if stamped 5512/13 (26.5mm dial opening) case letters/numbers between lugs can be from Ok to awful to none at all originally came with spring wire bezels (all I have seen) crown guards aka 'rat ears' need a little attention lug holes need to be drilled
  10. "I wouldn't buy my gen Rollies for the prices that the market demands now." Me neither. It must be Greenhorn 'collectors' with too much $$ buying them. I would have more pride in a F-stein or project watch that I put together for a few hundreds bucks even if it is not genuine because anyone with enough $$ can buy a genuine example. Not many can put a watch together from a conglomeration of parts from hither and yon. I would venture to guess that RWG has more watch guys that can do most of the actual watch work than any other watch forum. The average genuine rolex forum guy has trouble screwing a crown down. Q...Who has the best sub? A...US Navy.
  11. Gen dial fit rep case?

    "I am wondering if I could fit a gen Datejust 1601 dial into a 36mm made for ETA 2836 case?" Anyone ever wonder why they made the 'pie pan' dials in the first place? Because in the 1960s 'thin was in' and they made the 'pie pan' dial so the movement could be mounted higher in the case in order for the watch case to be made thinner. Omega 'pie pan' Constellations of this era were made the same way for the same reason. That being said, when using a 'pie pan' dial with an aftmkt case made for an eta 2836, there should be plenty of room for it all to go together. Maybe someone on the forum has made up a watch with a genuine 'pan' dial and an eta 2824 or 2836 and will chime in with how it went. I have never put a watch like this together so I am no help. I have stuck a few later model sapphire DJ projects together and I always use an eta 2836 because there is more room for the DWO. Looks like the main question is: Does it need a 2824 or 2836? I do not know for sure but I do know this...a 1575 date movement with a 'flat top' dial will fit into a case made for a 3035 date movement and flat top dial. One example is a 1575 movement and 'flat top' dial from a reference 1500 will fit right into a 15000 case made for a 3035. So...(by deduction), if a 2836 with a 'flat top' dial will fit into a rolex case made for a 1575 (genuine spec 1680 for example), it means a 2836 should fit in your DJ project case made for a 2836 although the 'pie pan' dial might allow the movement to mount a fraction of a mm higher in the case. What this all boils down to is you might have to try to find details on a similar project on the forum or wait for a member to give an answer...StoneP comes to mind. https://rwg.cc/topic/182885-super-franken-rolex-datejust-1601/#comment-1458304 "It's likely the 2836 will need a movement ring." Yes, a spacer similar to what is needed for putting an eta in a 1680 because except for the dial size, 1600 and 1680 cases are are the same internally. Something else to consider is a date wheel overlay...you will need one and they come with their own set of obstacles, fully explained on the forums. I just now measured a genuine 1601 dial and it is 27.9mm in diameter.
  12. Useless trivia...

    Trivia from here (RWG) and there. No guarantees for accuracy. Vickers scale of hardness: 24K Red Gold 160 Aluminum 167 Magnesium 175 18K Gold 216 Silver 251 Copper 369 Stainless Steel 400 Lanthanum 491 Hublonium AG5 500 Platinum 549 Iron 608 Tantalum 873 Zirconium 903 Titanium 970 Magic gold 1100 Tungsten 3430 Ceramic 6200 (used by Hublot; Zirconium Oxide) The Sub-Date used 316 steel up to and including the 16800. The 168000, introduced ca. 1988 was the first Sub-Date to use 904L. The change to 904L occurred in the other models but it started in the late 80s with the Sub-Date. 24-700 crown is a no-dots twinlock crown. You'll need a tube with threads going all the way to the end of the tube for this (24-7000-0). 24-702 crown is a triplock 3 dots crown; the crown has threads extending all the way to the opening and the tube is without the O-ring gasket on the exterior, but the threads only go to about 3/4 of the tube with a [censored] at the end (24-7020-0). 24-703 crown is a triplock 3 dots crown. This crown requires the tube with the exterior O-ring gasket; the crown threads stop mid way inside the crown to accomodate the tube's exterior gasket (24-7030-0). There is also a 24-703 monobloc/24-704. Same as the above 24-703, except of 1 piece design (the crowns prior were a wrap design) and these are easily identified by the size of the coronet on the top of the crown (short and squat while the 2pc. is a long coronet). Requirements for minimum thicknesses for watch cases in the various materials. All require not less than 10 karat fineness: Gold filled - thickness throughout of not less than three one-thousandths of an inch. This equates to not less than 76 micron in thickness, (approximately the thickness of a sheet of photocopy paper). Rolled gold plate - thickness throughout of not less than one and one-half one thousandths of an inch. This equates to not less than 38 micron in thickness. Gold electroplate - 20 micron is considered heavy for modern electroplating, and much plating is 5 micron or less. German Silver (nickel silver), is an alloy of 60 percent copper, 20 percent nickel, and 20 percent zinc V72 hand sizes Hour 1.60 min 1.09 center chrono 0.25 sub-second 0.23 sub-minutes 0.25 sub-hours 0.28 V7734/6 Hour 1.45 min 0.95 center chrono 0.30 sub-second 0.20 sub-minutes 0.30 sub-hours 0.21 V72, V727 and more advanced V7750 series have all the same dimension specs. If I remember well its something like 13 lines and around 6,5mm thickness All these movements fits in all kind of cases. When DW or Yuki talk about Daytona cases made only to match with V72, its not wrong but a wrong description. Rolex drilled 2 more holes at different location in the V72 movement plate to fix it into the case. R.C.Spielmann company who made cosmograph cases for Rolex machined cases according these new fixation features. But a V7750 can be fitted into a Rolex specs case. The difference between the full chrono functions and the faux subdial at 6: The subdial spacing is slightly different between V72 series and V7750 series. In these reps powered by Seagull, the Seagull movement has the same 9 and 3 subdial spacing like the V72/727 but no hours counter function. It result the faux subdial with a faux hand at 6. The full chrono functions reps using a 7750 have a slightly different subdial spacing -around half a millimeter. Gen dials or aftermarket dials with exact Rolex specs don't fit. Dials made for Daytona reps powered with the 7750 are specific. "Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion--when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing--when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors--when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you--when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice--you may know that your society is doomed." --Francisco d'Anconia in Atlas Shrugged Newer = Better: 116610LV Oyster Perpetual Submariner Date (why not just OPSD?) 40mm, stainless steel, pressure proof to 1000 feet (from the boat dock...horizontally) Special time-lapse Cerachrom bezel (gotta have it!...because it's 'special'). 31 jewel chronometer movement ($7000 better than an Eta!) Synthetic sapphire crystal (same as found in most replicas!). Special Glidelock clasp and Oyster bracelet 97200 (Glidelock! can't beat it!...except for the old style sheet metal models). All for only $9050.00!! (plus tax). BS or not? (mostly from RWG) A genuine watch IS overpriced at list price if none or very few will sell at list price while the exact same watch will sell in quantity for 20%, 30% or 40% less than list price. Example...try to sell an Invicta at list price. They will fly at 70% or 80% off though. A watch is not overpriced if the entire production or most of it will sell at list price. Some buyers will pay list price for a watch and others will not buy without a discount, that's just the way it is. Some buyers believe list price is Ok because it makes the item seem to be more valuable (to them) while others will not pay list price because the watch is not worth as much as list price (to them). I remember reading on one of the genuine watch forums a few years ago about a guy who had his mind set to buy an Omega SMP and had found one at an AD for $1700 or so. He was going to buy it the next day. That evening he and his wife went to Costco and while the wife was shopping for groceries, the guy went to look at watches and found a new in box omega SMP for $1350. Which one did he buy? The one for $1700 because he said "The lower price at Cosco tarnished his image of the SMP" because to him it was a $1700 watch. I laughed out loud because the minute he sized the bracelet and put the watch on...he then owned a $1000 watch no matter how much he paid. As for me, I would not pay over 20 to 30 cents on the list price dollar for most new in box (rolex) watches unless I could sell it for a profit. That's about all they are worth to me if I had to own one. I knew an AD and could get just about any new rolex for cost (except Daytonas) as long as I promised not to immediately flip it. In 20 years, the only one I bought at cost was a sapphire GMT II. I never wore it but sold it about 12 years later and bought a 1675. So... The question was...remove all branding and lay a replica and genuine watch down beside each other. This means all production, advertising, delivery and after sales cost are irrelevant. The cheaper unmarked replica watch would probably out sell the higher price unmarked genuine watch by a large margin until the reputation of the replica was ruined by poor QC, WR, reliability, no service, warranty etc. APB: Anyone have a Yuki 1680 case number 2835577? Stilty bought it new and later traded it to me (without mvt or dial) and I traded it to another member, no telling where it is now. Still have the 16xx DJ the movement came out of...serial number 2835577. T or F? The original Noob watches were assembled in Thailand. Now the new ones are strictly from China. Top of the line 'Noob' Submariner = F520117 serial number and out of production since around 2007. Same watch as some 'TWB', 'Beginmariner', WBK etc. True: Before Ducatis, I rode 2 cycle Allstates...Mo Ped, 125, and 175. Like this: http://www.bikesrestored.com/4522/allstate-puch-175-1958/allstate175-1958-5/
  13. Genuine crystal, is it worth it?

    High grade pink sapphire is the same no matter where it comes from. ST has two grades of sapphire crystals...Asian 'B' quality and Swiss 'A' quality. The Swiss crystals are every bit as good as oem. Rolex does not make their crystals, afaik Stettler Sapphire AG still makes them.
  14. Installing 6020 Tube in Rep Case

    Something else to jack the crown away from the case... Genuine cases with 5.3mm and 6.0m crowns/tubes have small washers made of some sort of silver between the case tube and case. This is what seals the tube to the case. The washers are very hard to get for regular 6.0mm case tubes but some aftmkt 5.3mm case tubes have them included. Brass dial washers will work as a last resort. ...or K&W Copper Coat. Ha! Do not know or care about the later model stuff because as far as I am concerned, RWC stopped making watches in the 1980s. ...or was it the 1970s? Quick set! What the hell is a quick set? Who cares what day it is anyway? What will they think of next, solid bracelet end links?
  15. JMB: "I would bet a good portion of Automatico's stash that it's for a 2836 if it came from fleabay..." Good bet. You can't lose! But...if you do lose the bet, I get to pick which portion I give up because I have four 30 gallon plastic tubs half full of DOA-NOS quartz fashionista watches...the 'winner' pays shipping. The tubs are half full because they were so heavy, I could not carry a full tub across the parking lot to the dumpster in the hot sun and my truck was closer. Why did I not just drive them to the dumpster? That is a moot point. I thought they just needed a battery...but they need a battery and a movement. Looks like I missed my one chance to get rid of them when I loaded them in my truck instead of the dumpster.