alligoat

The basic A7750 movement is a good movement, but typically they come somewhat dirty. After a servicing ($200) they should do fine for 4-5 years.

If you pay for Swiss, it would be nice if you got Swiss, but I would figure these days maybe you have a 50-50 chance of getting Swiss. Maybe less- especially from the cartel dealers like Josh and Andrew, etc. And I don't think the factories really care. Some dealers like Chris might still be true to their word. But you have to have on-site QC, drop shipping is an invitation to trouble. As for the clones, hasn't Ziggy stopped working on them? Too hard to adjust. My watchmaker won't work on them- made my nephew go out and buy an old ETA and installed it instead. And the SSD from Silix was supposed to be Swiss! I just hope the quality of clones improves, but luckily I have quite a few old Swiss etas from watches I no longer wear. My preference is definitely Swiss for the long haul, but I still buy asian 21j's for beating around. I've even bought a couple of Miyota powered knock-offs lately- they're very nice, keep good time and are WR!

Thanks for a great account of your trip to GZ, OS. Looking forward to the follow-up conclusion, it's been a great read.

Freezing means the running seconds at 6 is immobilized. Ziggy has done this on occasion with the Daytona seconds at 6 and the same principal would hold for the 3714. On a typical 7750, the running seconds is at 9 and thru a series of added gears it is moved to 6. But this bogs down the movement and is problematic for the watch. By disabling the running seconds, the rest of the watch can still function- the center chrono seconds hand and the 30 minute counter at 12 are still able to function just fine. Concepta had some gen movements for the 3714 for sale a while back. avitt had some success with some kind of coating (teflon? can't remember) on one of the bridges of the 7750 movement which reduced friction and allowed it to operate w/ the running seconds moved to 6. Keep searching and you should find the old posts- probably 6 mos to a year old. Try "IWC 3714".

At $200 x 250 each, you're actually talking about $50,000.00! BK is coming out with the 2824 in a YM case- correct crown position, pretty close to 1:1. WM9v2 has gotten pretty close on the sub case. If you took it to the next level w/ a 2824-2 movt, you'd almost be there. Sean at etaswiss has the 16610 case, supposedly accepts a gen movt. 1:1, I don't know, we haven't seen anyone with it yet here and it is too expensive ($600). But at what point do you piss off the rlx cops?

With a Serial Number of M092117, I'm thinking this is a noob factory watch. They're also using the same SN on the new noobs with the rehaut engraving- the 'updated M serial' 16610 sub. Nice review, Gio.

Noob crown guards aren't too bad, they just need to be trimmed on the inside edges maybe a 1/2 mm. Here's a 16610 from ebay- look at about the 3rd pic down- there's a little bit of daylight between the crown abd the cg's- not much and you have to keep the same angle that the noob already has. http://cgi.ebay.com/Mens-Rolex-Submariner-Stainless-Steel-16610-Date_W0QQitemZ380154567839QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item5882fa5c9f&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

It's a beautiful watch, too bad you're thinking about selling it.

Yup, that's the old Noob SN. Trim the cg's and put a WM pearl on and you've got a great beater. Congrats.

If you order an insert, it comes with the pearl in it. For the beginmariner just order the pearl. Then you pop out the beginmariner pearl, enlarge the hole slightly with something like an x-acto knife and glue in the WM pearl. There's no need to change out the beginmariner insert itself, just the pearl. BTW, the beginmariner insert is slightly smaller in OD than the replacements and gen inserts so you have to do quite a bit of sanding to make other inserts fit in the beginmariner. Not worth it, IMO.

Well, Alberto, that just goes to show that the PMWF insert and the Ofrei pearl are a very good substitute for a gen insert. I think it looks great.

The big problem on rep 1675 dials has always been that they say "Oyster Perpetual Date", not "Oyster Perpetual". This dial is at least correct in saying "Oyster Perpetual". But print quality sucks, fonts look strange, certainly not up to Rolex's quality standards, IMO.

That dial has either been relumed, or the lume is bubbling up. Minute hand looks too fat. Are you sure that's a gen???

I certainly think dial and hands w/ vintage relume is cool. I love to be able to see that stuff in the dark. Also, Tribal, can you explain the flat top date wheel, I'd love to know more about that.

I've seen silver lettering on some cheaper reps. I wasn't aware of Rolex using silver lettering on their gen dials though.

Beautiful, Alberto! Looks like a gen crown, gen bezel insert, trimmed cg's. Maybe you could tell us what else was done. Oh, lugholes drilled. Very nice, bellisimo!

I'd agree with the others, it is a good price. From a collector's point of view, it's probably just a so-so watch. But at around 28 years old, the tritium will be gone on an original dial. Rolex would put in a new dial and new hands, both with SL. A redone matte dial isn't so bad IMO, mainly because you can't get them anymore, unless you pay around $500 and it still won't glow. Even if you buy the watch and just wear it, you won't lose much money and if you keep it 5-10 years, you should be able to get your original investment back.

It's my understanding that the original early MBW 1665's had a working HE valve, but that was 5-6 years ago, maybe longer. Some of the cheap CN 1665's like Paul's or Andrew's have a working HE Valve and it's a very good copy of the original in that respect, but the case sucks- typical modification of correct dimensioning for Chinese production, slightly smaller than the gen, in this case, won't take gen crystal or insert like an MBW. MBW's all have fake HE valves these days, unless you make your own like Freddy did. Last option, Yukiwatch, or the more expensive Vietnamese cases- these have real HE valves.

You can check the SN on your sub- F520117 is the old noob SN, new SN is something like M09x117- but it's printed on the rehaut also. I worked on a friends VIP Mariner awhile back- seems like the SN was F458xxx or something like that. Take the bracelet off and check between the lugs at 6 o'clock.

Very nice. The rehaut actually looks pretty good. I think the new crown on these is closer to the gen- maybe a copy of it. With a watchmaterial pearl it would be a great beater.

What you have in mind is kinda like reverse engineering. Older Datejusts had plastic crystals, 1600, 16013, 16014. Then around the late 80's Rolex introduced the 16200 series of Datejusts w/ the sapphire crystal. Maybe the Day-Date also went with a similar numbering scheme- 18033 to like a 18233 model number when they went to the sapphire crystal. Now all modern Men's Rolexes use the 25-295-C sapphire crystals, AFAIK. But here's the rub, a 1162xx case is not made to take a plastic crystal. If you did find one that fit, the bezel would in all likelihood not fit over it like it should since the side of the plastic crystals are wider than the sapphire assembly. So then you'd have to find another bezel- more trial and error, mucho frustration. And since you're dealing with a rep, the chances of anything fitting are purely hit or miss- rep sizes are typically not the same as gen- in some cases they're getting closer (WM9, Euromariner), but there are no guarantees. The only thing I think you could do is find maybe a gen 16014 case and fit a DD dial and 2836 movement in there- if the dial will fit- the rep dial might be a bit too big. But all you can do is try.

A Swiss 7750 will cost $300-400 and as Ronin says, there is a problem with the hands fitting. I thought it was the subdial hands being a different size- 18mm vs 20mm. I'd definitely recommend looking for a good watchmaker, no point in messing up your watch further.

The Beginmariner is a great watch as long as the movement keeps working. It has the chinese DG2813 movement in there and it can last a few days or a few years. After 7-8 months, maybe a simple servicing/cleaning might get you going again, or you may have to do a movement swap. Either way, I would figure you need to find a watchmaker that will work on reps. Or buy another Beginmariner- maybe you'll have better luck the second time around. This is the big drawback to buying reps w/ chinese movements in them- the movements aren't that great.

Paul's 'so called perfect' is a noob- the updated M serial w/ a 2836-25j movement- you'd have to figure it's asian, but should be 28.8K beat. This may well have the better crown, rehaut still looks a little thin, but it's still not a bad deal for a beater http://www.pam111.com/product_info.php?products_id=1165&osCsid=e75b3340c2a7dffc8577049ab800bc51

I would think of this watch as a high quality franken. Aren't the case and movement authentic? Don't know about the dial, but altogether it looks like the kind of quality that would make it a very nice franken- put together from gen and rep parts.