RobbieG

What's this - Lanikai buying a - ahem...cough...cough...sputter...GEN? And we were just talking about that on the phone that you might be starting to think that you were ready to get a gen Rollie. Of course you could always have afforded to buy one (or a fleet of them probably) so it was never about the money, but like most of us here you were just so enamoured with being able to aquire so many reps and experience so many different designs with a constant flow that you never saw the need until now. I'm happy for you brother. It will be interesting to see if you end up being one that the fine details of the gens really speak to you and hit a feeling that reps can't quite do as I have discovered over the years, or if you will be more like Bytor and not really see a whole lot of difference that justifies the expense. We are all a little different in that respect for sure. Now for a couple questions: 1. Did you choose that watch since you felt the price and auction was right and/or is that particular Rolex a grail watch for you and/or always has been? 2. Also wondering what your critera would be in choosing a gen collection as opposed to the rep criteria which is undoubtedly looser as it is for most of us. In other words, if you were to contemplate getting a handful of gens even in the future, do you have a good idea what they would be already? 3. ...and would you choose them based on experiences with growing to love them as a rep first - or not and just buy gens there were no good reps of? I think I speak for all in asking this stuff as we would all love to know. Plus we never really finished that phone conversation because you told me I had to shut up so you could go back to work...

Yeah the GTG should be fun. Hopefully, we can get a better turnout though. Seems like there should be a lot more members in South Florida - if we only knew who they all were...

Beyond watches you will find a wealth of knowledge in the form of experts from virtually every brand - vintgae - modern - replicas - genuine watches - and beyond. If you're not careful, you will also end up with a lot of new freinds here. We are a pretty tight group and if you learn and grow and contribute as we all have you will soon be spending more time here than just ordering watches. Anyway, read, learn, ask educated questions and you will get all the help you could ever want. I might also suggest reading Toadtorrent's guide as a start. http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=85981 We think of it as pretty much the bible for newbies here and I wish when I joined long ago there was such a thing. One thing is for sure and that is as we have grown, the wealth of guides, reviews, experts on the board has become just staggering. Enjoy and again, we are glad to have you.

I'm sure he can source it for you. The factories have pretty much every combination of dial numerals and colors. I also know he has the new style Jubilee bracelets with the hidden clasp like the President. They are REALLY nice too. Gave one to my Dad actually - Josh built it custom for me and it wasn't shown on the site come to think of it - MOP Romans, fluted bezel, Jubilee, ETA. He has a DD in black with the arabics shown now BTW... http://www.jpc8118.com/rldds01043-presiden...362-p-5203.html In my experience, DJ's or DD's you need not look at the sites, just say what you want and any dealer will build it or have it built for you. Any dia, bracelet, movement, bezel you want. At least Josh does anyway. Easy.

Yeah, no joke. I have the same blue rotor on my Dual Time Big Date. It is actually done by a sort of blasting of a stainless blue titanium based alloy onto the base metal using an ion sputtering process which makes it stick to the part. It is not too thick but not too thin either. Looks really cool in person. They have now started treating every movement part with this process in some special editions which looks really cool - especially when they now leave the balance, rotor, and screws gold and everything else is blue. Anyway, the rep rotors obviously don't use this "bluing" process as it were. They look like they are just lightly annodized (read stained...)

UN marine watches are all about the bracelets. They really make the watches. Just luxurious in every way. Feel like a million bucks. Hopefully if they do the bracelets they will take great care to make them perfect as if they don't feel right it will be an utter failure in this case. Rolex sports watch bracelets are kind of supposed to feel marginal, as the gens do too so one doesn't notice that as much, but here they won't get away with anything less than close to perfect...

You know, I never noticed before and it is on the steel rep too, but what is with teh 200M font being obscured by the cyclops? That would drive me nuts. It looks like either the date is too high, the cyclops is too big or something else. Of course obviously it must be that the gen is based on a 7753 and whatever UN did to modify the date (normally at 4:30) with the basic movement to put it at 6 landed it lower that whatever had to be done to the Asian 7750 with the tricompax layout and its date position. I guess when they 1:1 positioned the dial print they didn't take that into account and then it was a chain reaction placing the cyclops in overlapped it and by the time they realized it the dials were probably already done. Funny how they nail almost everything and mess up the simplest thing. Of course the movement issue is the movement issue and we can't expect the date to be in the exact same place as the gen, but they should have at least anticipated that and adjusted the dial accordingly to make it so one wouldn't really notice it.

Now it makes sense why they made the dials with the black floating indices and accidentally used them wrongly in some of the steel versions. They had them all along planning to use them in the gold watches and just made the classic factory mistake. Cool though. I actually ordered this watch (gen), got it in and sent it back. It was amazing, but I bought it sight unseen and never realized I hated the look of UN rose gold. It is really greenish and much more like kind of an ugly browish/greenish yellow gold as opposed to a pleasing rose gold. I couldn't stand the look of it with my skin tone. Worse than any yellow gold I have ever seen on me even. I do love Rolex Everrose and the Hublot rose gold and a few others, but rose gold is a funny thing and that is one of the few things I feel UN could do a much better job with. The good news is, judgeing from this one pic, I can tell that the rep rose gold plate color is better looking than the gen. LOL.

Yeah, the UPO originally pointed the way, but grabbing the gen 42MM PO was one of the best purchases I have made. The addition of the rubber strap has opened up a whole new world of versatility. But I can't stress enough that it is the AR and the lume that make this watch in person. In diffused natural and low light the AR just brings out the richness and depth of color!

-YM is dead givaway with thin seconds hand and dial is certainly not PT -It would not surprise me if the Gucci was gen since it is a costume piece - but it looks fake anyway so I hope it is a rep As for the other two, older Rolex gens and reps are tough since they change them so much over the years. I couldn't commit to either without more pics. The gold on both of them can sometimes look like bad plating but can also be just because it is soft and/or has been subjected to varied polish jobs over the years. The end links fit terrible on the Day Date and the bracelet edges are tough because they looked polished in sections and should be brushed. Although there looks to be a pink gold clasp on it which may or may not be correct depending on the year. The T dial dates it to before 1998 and I don't think they started with the rose gold clasps until later. So the bracelet at least might be rep but the head could still be gen. So I suppose if I were playing it safe I would say the two gold watches are gens and the other two are reps - with the reservation that the Gucci and anything like that is always going to look like a rep, but it could very likely be gen. PS: Yellow gold doesn't always age well. Of course now Rolex has really refined alloys with platinum on them for holding color really well but the didn't always. A lot of older gold watches take on a brownish green cast which can sometimes make gen watches look fake - especially if the softness is pitted. I have seen a lot of older DJ's and DD's locally that I would thought were fakes until I found out they were gens.

You are starting to worry me my Libran brother...

That legendary Rolex steel is looking mighty fine to me today BT. Just a bit whiter to the discerning eye which gives gen Rolex's that little extra "can't put your finger on it" pop... Back to the MMD today for me. Been wearing it a lot lately. More than usual I mean. Funny how even us small collection guys run in streaks. One week I'll wear the DJ nonstop, then the AT or whatever, then I'll alternate and wear two watches every day. Never can call it...

Nice Laz - with the new updates I mean. Although I feel like I know all the pieces much better after talking about them in person now. Cheers.

Yeah, good point - and most people who haven't done it can't make sense of that. You have to do it a few times to understand what motivates that. Most new rep buyers assume that other buyers will make a choice to buy a gen or rep with a financial consideration and it isn't usually so.

That's pretty close to accurate. A typical 1:1 so-called super rep these days may take a year or more to come to completion from the time the host watch is purchased until release. The new UN Diver Chrono is a good example. He preordered the watch before it even hit the market, waited for it, then turned it right over to the factory. He said it would bum him out to see it in pieces all the time. I wasn't exactly waiting with baited breath or anything, and I was sworn to secrecy about the details of the project at the time, but I want to say that it was apart for at least 9 months from the time the case watch was disassembled in that case.

Yeah YM's are really comfortable. The slight extra weight from the PT in teh dial and bezel center it on the flat spot and it balances nicely on my wrist too.

Yeah, I had one like it for a while. You are showing your age BT. I also was enamoured with the quartz TAG Formula watches when they came out in the 80's. I have often thought of buying watches from the past for the same sake but of course it would be wasteful...

Oh yeah, they are really close for sure. Not knocking them at all. It is the fisest details I'm talking about and you have to be a little nuts to focus on them. As an example, no rep PP is going to stand up to the test against the gen with a loupe. The quality differences are pretty obvious. The feel is also the one that never quite hits for me - even when on the super reps the fit and finish do. Even the smallest details like what the rotor sounds like is stuff that becomes really important to me, hence why I'm buying mostly gens these days. I never compare value. Never. Fraction of the cost is not something that I consider. If I truly love a watch, I will want the best version of it. But I realize that I am the exception when it comes to this stuff. Although I can't agree that there are any reps that are nicer than their gens?

Yeah you never know just what gens will be nice and which won't. So the Fifty may be better than the gen. Some gens are crap - like the Dewitt's as an example. Just really junky feeling. And then you hold a UN or a Vacheron or even something cheaper like a gen Steelfish and you just want to sleep with them. I'm REALLY dialed in to the three F's in horology - fit, finish, and feel. But in all honesty, being as objective as I can, I can't recall but one rep that really got there - even the super ones. They get close, but will fall down somewhere. Of course being a detail guy I'm REALLY picky about that stuff so I notice everything. Of my core gen collection now there are very good quality reps available of three of them (PO, Aquatimer, DJ) but they all miss by a mile out of the box IMO - not talking about visual flaws but the three F's. Of course with a gen dial and crown the DJ will be closer, with double AR and gen parts the PO will be closer, and the Slevin is pretty good except even with the lume done it has that raised lumpy look at macro. Laz and I were talking about it the other day - if you hold reps to loupe quality you will be disappointed. But most people don't care about the details and usually just the basic visual accuracy above all. To that end, I'm kind of an outsider, but my punishement for being so picky is having my wallet lightened a lot more than the masses here on a regular basis. LOL. Many times I wish I wasn't so taken by the finest details, but then I say to myself, life is too short. If you love something, buy the highest version of it that you can and get the most enjoyment possible. It's only money. You can't take it with you and as my Dad used to say - "Money is only something you need in case you don't die tomorrow..."

Well, I kind of had a watch addiction before reps but really just Rolex watches - a Sub, then a YM, and I always had a gen Datejust for the last 15+ years or so. Then I found reps and went on a spree. In the end I realized that I would use reps as a way to keep up on the latest simple (uncomplicated) watches which is what has primarily interested me. I fell in love with the community here really as opposed to reps per se and just enjoyed the level of watch talk here as opposed to anywhere else on the web. So reps for me serve as a sort of trial run for genuine watches I think I might be interested in. I'll get the rep for a few hundred or whatever and see how I take to it. If I fall in love and I just can't live without it, after a few months I'll sell the rep and get the gen. Much of my core collection today was born of reps. -The Aquatimer came after checking out the Slevin and I decided on the Ti watch instead. -The PO started as the UPO which I felt was too clunky and didn't care for without really strong AR which just makes the watch - so I decided to get the gen in the 42MM size. -I have always had a DJ and wanted to upgrade to the new style with wider lugs. I was thinking rhodium roman dial with Oyster bracelet and so I got a rep of that for a bit to make sure. It stuck and I bought the gen and sold the rep Anyway, that is the process and those are three examples. Sometimes it doesn't work out and I wish I had done the rep trial. As an example I bought a gen GMTIIc Rolex without getting the rep first. I realized that I didn't really love it - at least not 6k worth of love and I ended up taking a little hit on the sale. If I would have got the rep first it would have saved me. Similarly, last year I went on a buying spree of a bunch of gens on impulse while traveling and regret it to this day. I sold them all and really thinned out my collection to what I just adore. I learned my lesson. I told laz the other day on the phone that my goal now is to have such a refined collection that when I stand at my box every day, I literally can't decide what to wear because I wish I could wear them all. If anything starts to get segregated off it goes. I think I'm done now and I need to add a couple category holes to fill even. But the core 5 in my signature are here to stay and probably always will be. Oh and one more thing, I won't ever duplicate a particular category again. If I decide I like a certain watch in a category in the future more than the current one I will replace what I already have. If I can't bear to part with what is already there that will be seen as a sign that maybe the replacement is not needed. Example: The PO fills the black dial/black bezel brushed finished dive/sports watch category. If I decided say that I wanted the new ceramic Submariner when it comes out I would have to want it more than I want to keep the PO because I wouldn't have both. From experience I know what will happen and it is that the newest one will get all the attention and the other will sit. I just don't want to be wasteful. But of course I would in that case get the rep first and see how I like it before making any more rash decisions.

The good news is that anyone who wants any of those neuvo watches for cheap will have them and plenty to choose from. And maybe some higher complications will come available cheaper too. For example, I would like to have a nice perpetual calendar and a nice repeater someday and it looks like that I may be able to get them much cheaper than I originally thought. I like the idea of a travel watch with an alarm so trading up the Dual Time to something like the Sonata sounds fun - although $60-(80k with full WG bracelet) is a bit much. Already seeing them as low as 25K. With regard to the perpetual, grabbing the UN which preserves the great GMT complication along with a PC in which all PC functions move simultaneously forward and backward across time zones is cool but expensive. I always said I would love to have a reason to have a winder and keep a watch running continuously without ever having to wind or reset the date. Similarly, this piece is very expensive at 50-70K and I'm seeing them now for $25K and less. The bottom line is the lazy people like my best friend with the million dollar watch collection (sorry bud) just buy these things for giggles and have no interest in servicing them. We WIS are going to make some great scores from guys like him in the coming few years as the boom floods the used market.

But they will never go away and will always be a target for discriminating buyers of luxury items. Plus, I personally can't wait for the bubble to burst because as with all bubbles the bar will be higher for survival of the fittest. We will see the flood of real "stretched" designs and ideas disappear entirely and the tried and true designs and brands remain which is fine by me. I won't shed a tear when the Dewitt's and BRM's and so on go away. Patek and VC and AP and Rolex and Breitling and Omega and the like will always hold my interest. They have for 30 years+ now and my taste still hasn't changed. And that, ironically, comes full circle with thread. The fact that mechanical watches need not change for us to love them is remarkable. Most other things in life are measured by constant evolution but for the most part, not watches.

They claim it was because of scarcity and cost of materials but I was surprised that they didn't given the success of the GST. The executed that one really well. Seemed like a no brainer. Those crazy counterfeiters. Always keep us guessing...

Yes, now there is an industry that has greatly benefited from the digital age. Case in point. If you use a loupe there you can't really see anything so you might as well step back and go for clarity...

Disagree? I'm not sure that I do really. I'm just figuring we weight here away from digitalgiven it is a forum populated by mechanical watch nuts, but I get that it is worth discussing, so moving on... I don't shun digital obviously since I make my living through full automation. LOL. But not in matters of the heart as they say. Sounds to me like we agree actually because as you say it is a matter of the soul. I suppose the difference then is that I stop there and you entertain digital because you don't stop there, and maybe like to introduce practicality into the equation? Simply put, my watch decisions are never practical and I love that - given that every thing else in my life is I enjoy the escape it provides. And maybe I'm also a bad one to ask because I for one don't feel the Swiss are robbing me blind. Nor am I influenced by their advertising. Nor do I wear them as status symbols. Pretty simple for me really. Nice things cost money in my world and I'm usually happy to pay it if it moves me - watch, furniture, clothing or otherwise. It is just the way it is. But honestly, how can buying a thing that sits on your wrist and paying even as much as 25K for it as I have make any practical sense at all - or a hundred grand for a sports car - or a million for a vacation property - or ten bucks for a soda in a hotel bar? Were we draw lines is a personal decision so it doesn't make for much of a sane debate really. Mechanical watches are perfect in that the machine cannot be improved upon in its current state. It is perfectly imperfect and the allure is it is a connection to the past - like fine furniture. Sure, I know Rooms 2 Go makes stuff that holds a cup of coffee just as well and is impervious to stains and is moisture treated or whatever - but it doesn't make my heart beat quicken when I look at and touch it. To that end I don't really care how accurate a quartz watch is - it doesn't look and feel and have the personality that say my UN Diver or GMT or whatever has, nor was it built on the sweat equity of upholding tradition. Mechanical watches will not fade through generations either. There will always be a market for them at some level. I'm also not sure what you mean about the rep world keeping up. I'm also not a guy that thinks most replicas really nail the essence of their genuine counterparts other than the look and basic function of them either so to that end I'm probably a bad case study for any opinion on this stuff. So it kind of ties in I guess to the practicality side of the discussion. For me, reps are usually missing all the fine details that draw me to watches in the first place. It took me buying maybe 50 reps over the years to come to that personal decision which was really just an understanding of what I like about timepieces. It is the pure perfection of the finest details that moves me not the designs or whatever so much. So to that end I found myself constantly unsatisfied because while everyone else was judgeing flaws and comparing them to the originals visually, I couldn't care less about accuracy but was more interested in how well they were made down to the finest detail - flaws completely aside. To that end, my rep collecting has sort of evolved into buying them as a dry run to see if I fall in love with a design in order to pursue the final end of letting the Swiss rob me. LOL. But anyway, as I said this debate is so personal it is hard to figure what the different opinions even mean. How can I possibly understand the merits of a digital watch when I'm really just wanting to stare at applied gold roman numerals or a screw balance or blued hairspring with a loupe? Cheers