RobbieG

If I have the time I'll do that. On the price front, yeah, they have gone up as they all have. Thankfully I got a lot of pieces this year at last year's prices. Just in the nick of time. Breitling and UN in particular have increased a lot - and it just so happens I have bought multiple pieces of both those brands recently. I dodged some bullets for sure. Last year, the Fish was around $2495 retail I believe on SS, the new list I think is $2950. I think I paid just over two grand for mine, I forget exactly but right in there. Great value at that or even the list price IMO...

Full pictorial (finally!) tomorrow. I'm getting lazy photography wise these days. I keep promising myself I'm gonna start shooting more and especially the gens. From now on they are getting shot the day I get them so I don't have to work so hard cleaning them to new condition first. LOL. This is a watch that started as a rep. I fell in love with it the day I got it and bought the gen the same day. BTW, take my word for it, the rep really is 95% or more as nice as the gen quality wise and the cosmetic differences are very slight. I know you have all studied pics, but to hold the two side by side it very difficult to tell them apart. Mine is the latest version with the updated second hand. The square rep second hand is correct also, it is just last years model. Other than that, the main differences are the dial is very one dimensional with the rep and it is missing the iridescent sheen that the gen has. Also, the dial execution is a little sloppy and it has a weird shine to it at certain angles, but this is really a stretch. It is more than adequate. Next, the rep blue is deeper and darker and the gen is more pale with a touch more slate or greyish color to it. To be truthful, I like the rep blue better myself. Finally, the rep has slightly raised and rounded indices and the gens are flat. That flaw is the only one that is tough to take as it can make the rep look cheap when the light catches it just right. Other than that, any other differences are not even worth mentioning IMO. Oh, and before you ask, the rep AR is perfect. Until tomorrow - a trio of wristshots...

All I know is that the 7750 has been expired for a long time now, which incidentally is why none of us can figure out why the A7750 isn't an exact copy of teh ETA. Why do what they did instead? I mean it seems like they would sell so much more in legit channels as well and if ETA parts were interchangeable they could almost have even an ebauche biz then...

Agreed. I didn't mean to say the factories were making them. Sorry. My guy was kind of saying that some factories just pump the watches out with the fake movements but say it is none of the dealer's business. Sell what we got or bug off or something to that effect. I think you are probably right. The only real questions are where are the factories getting them and are they modifying them with stamps and/or other markings or is that being done at the movement factory? But as you say that seems unlikely as the movement factories figure to be at least reasonably legit. If they are they must be considering just saying there are no ETA's anymore due to the so called industry changes even though untrue and in turn using that whole thing as an excuse to just make the shift to no longer using any brand name movements in rep watches at all. I'm sure that would make everything much easier for them by far. All the ETA stuff must kind of be a pain in a a$% for them. Any manufacturer would rather just have on euniversal product that works in most everything. To that end I think they have been doing that with the A7750 which is readily used in non chrono watches just as much as chronos these days. If not for case thickness I bet they would be using it in more watches if it would fit...

Yeah, I do believe that real ETA's are the execption now and that the majority are fakes and I think a good deal of industry participant do know about it. You have to be careful of the timeline here though. These are relatively new ideas for me and it wasn't very long ago that I would never have said that. No need to take exception though. I'm sure you are a big boy and if you are 100% sure of what you are buying and have a lot of faith in the sales community here good for you. I don't anymore except that I know my guy will look out for me and give me real ETA's as long as they are around. Like I said, he is a major player and he is the one that clued me into it along with The Zigmeister seeing it on his end. My dealer also does know that some factories are trying to pass them off and he works around it because he knows the differences and what the real stuff is. But it also could be that some dealers may not even know the differences yet themselves either. Hard to say. In fact I just learned what I just said through a private conversation from GZ with him today in fact. Don't worry, it is all going to come out in the wash real soon and thanks to this and The Zigmeister's threads everyone will be able to be more aware of it and know what to look for when he gets done disecting more movements. Anyway, back to me and my big mouth...Although my opinions are based on solid and relatively new evidence (such as our principal rep service guy seeing more and more supposed genuine ETA's looking suspicious) they are still just my opinions which should be igonored by anyone with a strong opinion of their own on the subject. In short there is no need to pay any attention to what I have to say at all. All I was trying to do is help folks see the treachery afoot but in any case It shouldn't really "upset" anyone that I decided to present an opinion in raw form, rough edges and all. Speaking of edges, here is another rough topic: IMO, people are probably going to have to redefine what they consider to be "top dollar" as well I am sorry to say. I'm thinking that a true ETA 1:1 super rep for $300 or so may just be a bit too much to ask going forward with all the new pressures and genuine watch prices skyrocketing as well. Don't forget they also have to buy the watches to make 1:1's too. And I for one would pay much more if asked. You can't buy any no name watch with that kind of quality even with a lesser movement from anywhere else in the world at that price, so at some point we all have to ask, what makes us so special that we should still get those prices given all that is happening to the industry? Am I the only one here that thinks these watches are just the best deal in the universe considering what you get for the money? I mean it happens more and motre each year that I look at one of things and think at least for a minute that there is a good chance i got ROBBED buying the gen. Seriously. I think that SFSO rep is worth $300 without ANY movement in it and I own the gen. Seriously, I would buy that watch and the hands for $300 and put my own movement in it and any way you slice it that would still be the best watch for the money available anywhere in the world IMO... .04 (My girl says I'm long winded...)

For any who do not know about the movement he speaks of, it is the one incorrectly marketed as a Lemania or Venus handwind clone. It is a copy of a Venus handwind movement and actually very similar to the genuine movement that is found in many high end handwind watches such as the Vacheron Malte Chronograph. Of course the finish and overall quality can't come close to comparing but for the cash it is a quite pretty and reliable movement. Here is a pic of the movement in question and while we are at it, a few pics of the rep of that watch it is in as well...

10-4 and no problem, but if you don't mind me asking, what is upsetting about me reminding everyone that many dealers lie about stuff contstantly? Just curious. I thought it was kind of a known at this point. Buyers here really do have to watch theor butts on these issues as it can get pretty treacherous to know what you are getting. We have been discussing that topic for years around here way before this thread and what seems to be new info from The Zigmeister with more questionable info. Anyway, the fine print of that statement was really that I personally take it with a grain of salt and expect it form many dealers - but most definitely NOT my own. Anyway I just reclarified what I meant maybe in a little less harsh way. I was just being playful really. But hey, all in good fun. I mean don't shoot the messenger. Those ideas are not new ones and it has long been known around here that many dealers stretch the truth about a lot of pretty critical stuff and they have done so on a regular basis about a lot of things since I have been here. On a positive note, they also tell the truth a lot as well and by and large deliver stunning products with remarkable consistency for less than the cost of most no name watches sold in shopping malls. That is why I for one am willing to cut a lot of ETA slack as I think it is clear that it is one big grey area that I would rather not get bogged down with. I know I can get them here in the states so I'm less worried about getting them preinstalled. It is just my opinion but at this point it is too risky given The Zigmeister's latest comments. Now there is something new that he isn't recognizing again. The point being that maybe some dealers don't even know the difference anymore because the factories are keeping it from them to make more profit maybe? Who knows??? In the end, if ETA's in reps cease to be the norm if that is the way it goes and the copies become the new high grade rep movements available I guess there will be nothing left to lie about. It is also possibel that a whole new profit center will open up for certain dealers who will provide and ETA upgrade service or something. They could provide them even if the factories don't want to anymore. That is they couldl drop a genuine ETA in at the customer's request before shipping for an upcharge and if watchsmith services are needed to do things like broaching hands, etc. they will provide that as well. Angus is not my dealer per se although I have bought from him. He does offer that service now with genuine ETA 7750's if he can get them.

Oh yeah, I have a VC Malte chrono with that in it and I just love it. Bulletproof too. Smooth winding and keeps good time. I have had mine unserviced for over 2 years and it runs like a champ even after I dropped it once. You are right about the finish - it is fine to look at beyond 2 feet or sobut not so great up close. I sometimed think I would like to take on the project of taking it apart to polish the bridges and plates a little to see what it would look like. That movement would be the nuts with a higher finish spec.

Hmmm. Interesting. What do you make of that Rob? It seems like ETA wouldn't turn out anything like that. Will love to hear your speculative thoughts on that if you have any and look forward to seeing the pics.

I have no idea what the economies of scale are for ETA and I'm just repeating what my dealer in China is telling me. For whatever reason, there does coincidentally seem to be a price differential worldwide whether small or large as well as claims of shortages whether true or false. Maybe we should call this debate a draw given that nobody but ETA knows the real answer? Again, the only point to all this don't forget is nothing other than to find the truth of what may be going on related to reps after all. What we do know is that China claims a movement shortage and that conicidentailly or not, now we are seeing more and more suspicious ETA movements. The consensus from insiders is that even if there isn't a movement shortage or pressure from ETA, there it does appear to be possible that the rep "industry" may be trying to exploit the ETA news for profit or otherwise bring the copies into full swing to eliminate dedendence on Swiss movements altogether, which for the record is fine by me. Since this particular issue is as stale as week old bread, let me pose a new question: What does everyone think about the China copies? Maybe that movement could go through another quality improvement and get up to snuff with the A7750? Not there yet, butif it gets up to A7750 quality will you still seek ETA's. I for one will always put ETA's in reps and always have, even if I have to broach the hands. I have never owned an A7750 but I freely admit I have no real reason for it. I just like knowing I have Swiss movements in there so sometimes I'll source them myself and go from there. But that is part of the fun for me. How about you guys? It seems like the factories would be motivated to get these up to par and not ever have to think about 2824/36's again? I mean they effectively did that with chronographs and it seems to be working out really well for them.

John, what you just quoted seems to be stiring a lot of stuff up and I don't really see the value of you reposting it here except to stir stuff up here as well. You can post your own thoughts to Eurotimez without sticking me into it in the future. Let's just leave it alone. I am entitled to my opinion and you to yours. But since you did, let me clarify it so he now doesn't think I'm attacking his integrity which the statement had nothing to do with him. You need to be careful how you prestnt things John. This is how silly stuff gets started. Thanks for understanding. This statement was aimed at something I find personally funny is all. Lighten up. A replica movement in a replica watch - no way man..my dealer said it is Swiss...get it? Kinda funny but not a laughing matter for sure. That is all I'm saying. I also think most dealers do lie and that comes from my own experiences over the years. I should not have said all and I take that back though... I also think it is peculiar that many seem to only evaluate a dealer's trust because they send a watch when paid via these forums. Of course they did. They would lose all business immediately if they didn't overnight. Trust must come from something deeper than that. They also depend on this business for livelihood and they have to sell what they got. If they can't get real ETA's for instance, they may take a shot and try and get some through anyway. I'm not saying it is right, but this stuff happens in all sorts of legitimate business, so we should take it with a grain of salt that it happens in this one. Again, I also don't really care about this because of my dealer relationship. He will steer me straight and always has so I don't have to sweat this stuff too much except that he is telling me ETA's are hard to get and more expensive and I have no reason not to believe him. And if I can't get ETA's and I want them, I'll transplant them myself. No biggy. Anyway regarding the ETA issue at large in terms of supply these are my dealer's thoughts: The ebauche changes are affecting the whole industry in that since those are going away, companies who only need those now will now buy whole movements instead which puts pressure on supply. Makes sense right? Therefore there will be less complete movements in the supply chain to find their way to reps because they are being boughtas complete movements now and more so by 2010. So yes, and this is another hotly contested point it seems on the other board, the ebauche changes do and will contnue to affect the rep world more and more as time passes. And I'm sure ETA is happy about that because not only do they get to contol the whole watch world more than ever, it also takes the heat off them a little on the rep front as the move to complete movements will ensure more sales at top dollar and thus less chance that ETA's will end up in $200 or less replica watches. I think Eurotimez was saying something to that effect too? I may be wrong about that but I forget...

Just for the record I don't want to see this thread slide into what it did at RG. I'm now seeing some of the same topics start to simmer here so let's be careful please. I had to close the thread and take down all my posts over there because a few bad apples could not be content to disagree but had to resort to baiting, false accusations, quoting out of context, etc...which need not be rehashed here at home for me. I kinda feel like I need a shower after all that and it is good to be back here on the home front. In any event, I was surprised to see some of te finer points here seem to be such a hot topic and I'm going to be much more careful how I respond to them here if at all. Although I don't see this happening here with our crew, no one should be twisting this and saying all dealers are lying about movements. We know some have in the past now let's just leave that alone. That is not what the thread is supposed to be about anyway so let's stay on track. My dealer doesn't dropship so I always know what I am getting. I have been loyal to him for 3 years and the one time I ordered from someone else he let me down on the first try. I think many probably don't even know always if they are dropshipping and others are just dishonest. I have also been vocal in saying that I kind of expect dishonesty and I believe it is a shady business. It is what it is and it comes with the territory. Just certain dealers are the exception to that. We are talking about changes at ETA which may or may not affect reps and let's try and focus on that. If for whatever reason the supply shrinks and/or the rep ETA's end up taking the place or whatever, we all know and have relationships with our dealers and I'm sure most will tell the truth about it and it will all work out fine. Regardless, there will always be at least two movement quality levels and a price differential between them. I for one have pulled no punches in saying that whatever the outcome is fine by me. If there is in fact a quality copy of the ETA, and that is all there is, I will make the choice whether or not to buy it and you all will to. Or, such as in the case of Eurotimez, maybe some dealers will actaully offer a movement check and transplant service where the watch is inspected and if it is noty a real ETA the dealer will install one before delivering the watch for another price differential maybe. In any case, try to be understanding if there are changes going on that not all dealers can keep up with and maybe give them the benefit of the doubt. I for one am never quick to point a finger and call someone a liar when it comes to these issues and maybe I am an easy mark for a crooked dealer, I don't know. My default state however, is to feel that these watches are an INCREDIBLE value for the money by and large so I let a lot of stuff slide. To each his own though. Hats off to Eurotimez and those like him who take QC and promises so seriously. I know if even better ETA copies, stamps and all start to come in real heavy he and other experts will uncover the truth and arm us with the knowledge to make better choices.

The rehaut ring and dial are seperate pieces. I am doing a project now. I sourced a graphite/graphite dial which has a blackish rehaut ring that matches the subdials. This is the dial with the red automatic font. The two dial parts separate easily and snap apart with your thumbnail. FYI, the black ring on the silver subdial watch will be too black and not match the slate grey dial subdials so don't use that one. Also to note, the contrast between the rehaut dial ring and the subdials with the slate grey is MUCH more pronounced with the genuine watch, but even so, the watch with these mods is very accuurate. IMO, this dial is the best as the red font version has no contrast. The slight contrast with the darker subdials coupled with the AR just makes the piece and for me was the only dial choice. Mine is going to Vac for lume and then it will be done and I will shoot it and post. I also put an ETA 7750 I had in the watch as well so it will be as good as it gets when I'm done. Unfortunately Lello doesn't make the datewheels any more...

For starters, look on all the way down to the bottom of the movement on the baseplate just above the escapement and look for the little ETA logo stamp and the four digit caliber number kinda next to it. In these decorated movement sometimes the perlage swirls can make it hard to see if it is there at all. Per my thread though even that may not tell the story. I would have to take the rotor off and inspect it with a loupe to really be able to tell for sure if it is up to snuff or suspicious. Maybe someone else knows for sure and has looked at it already?

No doubt and I wish I hadn't used the Ofrei pricing as an example. I doubt that they are willing to keep ETA watch prices where they are at close to 80 buck a movement. I bet at one time they were under 20 for the bulk stuff and that works well IMO. But even at the sub $80 mark I still have to ask myself with the low volume and little known top tier reps how the factory can mamke any money if they are genuine ETA's anymore. They are still probably turning out an ETA Sub for a little over a hundred bucks to the dealer which includes $80 worth of movement, plus the quality crystal, solid 316L, etc...and still making a profit? Lets say they make $10 a watch at this price for a watch with a genuine ETA movement after parts. Even that still doesn't add up. I mean it just doesn't seem like it is worth doing for less than 10 grand per thousand units risk wise. There are just too many people that need to get paid - not the least of which would be law enforcement. Seems like that 10 grand would be just their cut to look the other way. LOL...

I think what he means though is that if turned out that what I have presented turns out to be 100% factual after all, then it would be true that every dealer is lying, and if so, what difference does it really make. I don't think it is really all that deliberate. It is just the way thing are done in that industry. Kind of like the car biz in America. The standard for car salespeople is to be full of [censored] and constantly trying to twist and move in ways to maximize the amount of money you pay for that car at all costs. It is a game and not to be taken seriously or it will just bum you out. It sucks, but it is what it is. Everyone understands the rules but since we all have to buy cars we just work our way around it and try not to let the little games car dealers play bother us. If you try to stand on a high horse about it the only one who loses is you and the end result is only that you have to stop enjoying buying a new car. Kinda the same deal with these watches IMO...

Amen to that brother. I didn't intend to dig up the white lie stuff again, believe me. I for one am willing to give gobs of latitude to these dealers and factories. Everytime I hold one of my few reps in my hand I can't help but marvel at the quality to price ratio, lies or no lies. The bottom line is that it get harder and harder to distiguish the quality differences from my genuine pieces and that makes me grin every time. I also admire their creativity in finding new ways to market the products - lies and all. Keep in mind, we are all witnessing basically a third world undergoing an industrial revolution. Those periods are always marked by puffing product claims. Remember all those miracle 'tonics' that could cure any ailment during our revolution in the US? Let's all try to just consider the source and remember not to take this arm of the watch industry so seriously. It isn't real. Just enjoy the fantasy that it is and be amazed at all the enjoyment you get for a couple bucks. If you are looking for truth and depth of history and tradition and to understand the craft and experience the perfection at the highest level, you can't ever experience that with reps I'm sorry to say. There isn't one I have ever seen that captures the true essence of Swiss genius no matter how 'perfect' it may be. They still just fall short in some "hard to put your finger on" way. If you try to hold this industry to a real standard I'm sorry to say you are only setting yourself up for one disappointment after another.

Good to hear at least one dealer finally admitting it. Not that any of us care right? I can't see them losing business. Of course it won't matter soon anyway as they will be using the ETA news to phase in the 2824 and 2936 movements of their own just like the A7750 is my guess. So the ETA mystery will be over soon in any event. I mean would knowing these movements were not genuine ETA's really stop anyone from buying the watch if you wanted it? And if it is a near ETA quality movement isn't the price of the watch fair anyway? I mean how cheap can it really be?

I don't doubt it for a minute. I'm sure what you are saying is very close to the truth. My point is that it is major and organized and pure crime of it is going on as ETA could not sell movements to rep factries without that sort of deep organization at many levels and that instead of all the layers with all the payoffs, etc. all the way to government, I'm betting the money might be better spent just creating a great version of the same movement just like they did with the A7750, and why not brand it ETA to get a little more mileage out if it and take advantage of the ETA buzz in the process...

You know guys, there is also something else that needs consideration and that is that while one time ETA may have manufactured some movements or movement parts in China that they are no longer doing it BECAUSE of the replica "problem". Even if they are, they have identified the counterfeiters and they are not selling to them. I mean how hard can it be to figure out who your customer is? Look, you all know by now at least in part from my pictorials that I am for one a serious genuine watch collector with a sizable stable and as such I have quite a few connections to that world in some fairly high places. I can tell you that the gloves are off now in terms of this war. Genuine watch companies are really, really [censored] off at what China is doing (or not doing to stop it..) with replicas. Some of the incidents of these idiots posting rep pictures on TZ has brought down a shitstorm of biblical proportions for the rep industy. I believe we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg and there is going to be much more to come. These things have gotten too good and now it is being continually rubbed in their faces. We need to consider that maybe ETA got so much heat from the industry that they were 'asked' (read...told) to "do something" about their operations in China to try and give rep companies less of an advantage. Don't you think that the industry has noticed as a whole what is in these things? As they sit in their boardrooms examining the latest amazing rep of their brand out of GZ, they open the caseback and what do they find? ETA. And don't you think calls are made to ETA to try and find out why it is that ETA is selling movements to these evil counterfeiters? Did you ever ask yourself, if in fact you believe the ETA's in reps are real, how it is that a rep factory manages to get ETA to sell them the movements? Is it like, Hi I'm a counterfeiter and I can't give you my real name but I need you to ship 10,000 2824's to my PO Box in GZ, which incidentally is known as the counterfeit capital of the world. Come on. So if you believe ETA is selling to them knowingly, don't you think the 'industry' would PI their operations over there to try and bust them out? How about Omega from within their own group? They have condoned ETA selling rep movements to counterfeiters which directly affects their own brand? I'm telling you guys, there is just NO WAY ETA is selling to rep factories that kind of quantity and getting away with it - whether they ultimately know who the buyer is or not. If nothing else, it would have been exposed a LONG time ago by some brand outside of Swatch. Certainly Rolex with their vast legal and deep pockets would have owned Swatch by now because of it. I'm telling you guys - The ETA's in these reps are most probably fake. With all that has transpired they just have to be at this point I'm sorry to say. But like I said, they are fantastic movements and they fit genuine parts so who cares...

Hi All, For many this may be redundant, but I see a lot of confusion surrounding ETA and movements in general coming from many members. I thought I would summarize both my knowledge and some of my own opinions and thoughts in one thread for folks who want or need the information. Here we go... For the most part the word 'Swiss' when used to describe the highest quality movement which can be had in a replica watch simply means that the watch is fitted with a movement manufactured by the Swiss manufacturing company ETA (pronounced as the letters themselves in succession: E-T-A, or sounded out like Eh-tah, which is especially common for European industry folks. Either is acceptable). In the case of replicas,

Amazing how much the recessed insert does for the overall look of the piece. It is one of those overlooked things that seems unimportant until you see it side by side. Your last dial comparison pic really shows how the recessed insert changes the look dramatically...

Yeah I remember seeing the hybrids like those with the same case and correct handstack but the shrunken Rolex font and logo dials. Yuk. Now that I just CAN'T live with. The dials on ours are really almost spot on. Certainly from a 3 foot difference no one would ever call these good dials out. Easily one of the best Rolex rep dials ever...

Are these still around? I have seen a few but they seem to have the over magnification and the date window too far to the right? Can people still source this exact base watch?