Tim

@TTK:

One person

@Tim.....I won't brook any argument with that POV....I'm no supporter of any of the Abrahamic faiths......to me they're all tarred with the same brush.....!

What I was seeking to emphasise is that our perception of Islam and it's underlying problems with the west.....are not confined to any specific historical period....!

As for N.I. ......I have a dfferent POV.......the vast majority of people in N.I. and Eire......have absolutely no desire to be embroiled in conflict....the vast majority of the trouble is and was caused once again by fundamentalists....with varying agenda.......and believe me.....the vast majority of it was 'criminal' in nature and not political.....there was a constant campaign amongst factions to determine just who was entitled to the reins when the vacuum was created by the Brits leaving N.I.......believe me it goes a lot deeper than just politics....!

So you are willing to be apologetic with Northern Ireland and say the situation is complicated, but not with the Middle East. I think the following rings very true:

The US should kick some ass in the Middle East. Someone should send Hezbollah back to Iran, lock the PLO and Israel into a room, and not open the door until they have an agreement signed. Then the UN should go in there, supported by the entire world, and enforce the agreement. The Saudi's can squish all the money needed into the Palestinian nation (we are paying for it anyhow at the pump) and the US can take care of Israel (we are paying for it anyhow with taxes). That one act all on its own would repair 80% of the problems going on now. The last 20% would be Iran and that would be a very difficult situation for the US to resolve since it is the Sunni that need to figure out how to live with the Shi'a.

-T

@Tim.....please don't ascribe to the view that fundamentalist Muslims have been driven to jihad by virtue of Imperialstic alignment of Middle Eastern countries......and that Jihad is a modern trend in fundamental Islam.....it's not....it's been there since the birth of Mohammed.....and his abrogated / perverse religion......!

I do ascribe to that view. And you have an example right in your own homeland of the same forces at work as those suffered in the Middle East. Northern Ireland. While certainly there had been a great deal of tension in Northern Ireland since the Plantation of Ulster, it didn't harden until all the mucking around with nations that occurred at the end of WWI. No, the industrialized world has never had any problems like what those the ignorant Muslims have created with their cretinish religion.... Christianity would never cause such strife.

-T

As for Yemen.....let's just say that I learned enough about the racist fundamentalist attitudes and beliefs that pervade Islam.....suffice to say that I have no respect for religion of any shade.....!

How would you know.....

I also have very little use for most of what constitutes religion in this day and age. Joseph Campbell probably said it best:

Salon.com had a good write up just yesterday about the whole Islam question. My point is that it does not accomplish anything by painting all of Islam with the same brush used by an exceedingly small minority. I happen to ascribe to the latter view of the following.

-T

I prefer Isam Unveiled; the print is easier on my eyes.

....more neo-con crap.

-T

Go educate yourself.....!

ISLAM UNDRESSED

What neo-con drivel! Why reference this crap which attempts to vilify all of Islam. These attitudes are what got the US into Iraq.

-T

Strange... I'm not numb to what is happening to our society. I see it every day I drive to work. Our society, based on strong religious convictions, is crumbling at our feet. Now I'm not saying that one religion is right, and all others are wrong, what I am saying is this: Most religions I am aware of seem to offer sets of guidelines for their followers. Usually some bit about "do unto others" is included in there. As more and more of our societies members become degenerates, so progresses our society. No longer is the majority concerned with the well being of their neighbors, but rather what they can steal from their neighbors. And this applies to both corrupt executives in large companies, continually shipping more and more jobs over to the east just to save a buck, and to your most basic of burglars. Both are raping our society for their own gain. If you really did your research on my society, you'd realize that doctors kill more people than auto accidents and guns put together. Yet you tell me that I shouldn't have the right to own guns, because some degenerate somewhere might kill people with a gun? Excuse my French, but that's [censored]ed up son. Banning all guns will result in two things: A lot of [censored] off Americans, and a lot of criminals who still have their un-registered guns. Your average criminal can't buy a gun legally anyways (at least if he's committed a felony or domestic abuse) and now the answer to illegal guns is to remove all legal ones? Dumb logic.

Everyone else is going to be responding to many of the arguments specifically dealing with guns. I saw this bit though and had to say something. What exactly do you consider a degenerate? I see broad swaths of degenerates whenever I drive through the suburbs and small towns in America. I have a feeling you see the exact opposite--on many issues.

-T

In Iraq, we should arm the populace. Instead of taking away weapons every time we find them, we should mass produce handguns and give them to every adult citizen in Iraq. The good guys outnumber the bad guys. We need to allow them the ability to defend themselves.

Oh wow, you're crazy. Everyone in Iraq today has guns. Guns, munitions, and RPGs; the place is swimming in armament. Every weapon that was in the Iraqi armed forces is now in the hands of the general populace. Taking them away is an ineffectual policy simply because there ARE so many weapons. You can go to the local town bazaar and buy a Kalashnikov with $500 no questions asked.

-T

fact is i do what i do because it pays well and provides for my family....i try to look beyond my moral and personal views of firearms, call me a hipocrite.

Hypocrite!

But seriously, I don't think anyone believes there is a moral dilemma involved in working for the establishment that exists for the defense of a nation. The only thing that I am conflicted about is the Eisenhower cited military-industrial industry. When there is a profit involved in devising ways to more efficiently kill people, nothing good can result.

but i pride myself on never having shot a gun let alone killed a living thing. most gun owners i know have killed something....kind of like having that new saw and you just can't wait to see how well it cuts

Liar, I saw you step on that ant last summer.

-T

[censored]...I'm not goin' to waste my time on that old chestnut.....!

As for deer.......haven't you heard of culling by responsible appointed authorities.......no need for anyone to don their checkered shirt and NRA baseball cap and go out to hunt an animal that has every right be in it's environment as you have in yours......that's one of the main reasons we build large conurbations.....besides which in the USA there are more hunters shot by other hunters than deer..... DELIBERATELY......!

The well defended populace was in jest.

But you really don't have any idea how many deer are in the US do you? You ever seen what a deer does to a car? I see it, a lot because there are so many. Since all their natural predators have been removed they breed like hoofed rabbits.

-T

The common factor in all of these incidents has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that people have access to guns......Virginia / Pennsylvania / Columbine / Dunblane / Texas....would never have taken place if these people had no access to guns.....maybe they would have resorted to knives / axe / baseball bat....none of which would have the same potential for extreme loss of life........this is not about the past....it's not about the present......it's about the future.....it's about not having this converstaion again.....and the only way that can be achieved is by taking the 'tool' of choice away from those who seek to inflict damage on society.....vexing their own frustations on others......!

A gun is nothing more nor less than a weapon....unlike a knife which can perform multiple tasks as a tool for the average person.....a gun has only one purpose.....to kill........why put that in the hands of an irresponsible public.....!

People will always kill other people......what is needed is damage limitation.......you cannot present a logical argument for the posession of a firearm........you don't need a gun for hunting....not when you can buy your steak at Wal-Mart.......you don't need it to repel foreign invaders....that's why you have an army......you don't need to protect your self......that's why you have a police force.....remember.....'to protect and serve'.......if you feel the need to have a gun for self protection......then your Government and local police force is failing you.....!

What then about the thought that "A Well-armed Populace Is The Best Defense Against Tyranny"? Besides that, you've never seen how many deer live in the US have you?

There should be no problem with shotguns and rifles. Hand guns and assult weapons ought to be very tightly controlled in my mind. There is no need to go hunting..... with a hand gun or an AR-15.

-T

-T

The problem you have is that the US is trapped in a gun culture society....

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Wow. Who says Neil doesn't have any opinions!

-T

Let's not get too sociological with causes just yet. The report I heard was that the shooter was a Chinese National attending Virginia Tech.

Where did you hear that? They are actually refusing to identify the guy other than saying he was a male of Asian decent.

-T

They have it plastered all over the news in the tri-state area pretty much all day. That is almost traumatizing in itself. One would like to say that all the guns we have sloshing around in the country has something to do with these events. But I've read studies that show that there are other countries where firearms are just as widely owned which do not have these problems. I remember from one of the reports specifically comparing Canada, which has a very low rate of gun violence, to the US even though the percentage of gun owners is about the same. So it is a puzzle why these things seem to happen in the US.

I personally think that all the violence we have in our media has a bearing on the problem. Showing sex or bare bodies does terrible damage to society but all the violence portrayed in media is fine. What speaks against this though is that we export all the crap movies and other media to other countries and they don't seem to have the same results.

It really is a puzzle.

-T

Hi M8,

I think you should remove the link. This forum is monitored closely, so we don't want to draw too much attention. I made the same mistake earlier by posting a simular link about the HBB/TZ thread.

PLEASE CLICK THIS LINK INSTEAD (anonymized)

when pointing to gen link, please add http://www.anonym.to/? infront of your link.

I don't quite know what you are accomplishing by this comment or the annonymiser. Is the annoymiser supposed to prevent the web address from being searchable? It doesn't. If it is supposed to help prevent TZ seeing the original address the click through originated from that doesn't work either since the referring Web page needs to execute a url identify the source web page. The Web address link simply open a new window and prefillls the information for the target Web page.

So not sure what you are trying to accomplish....

this is getting borring with that TZ HBB case, its have been posted few times already, please stop for christ sake

Simple solution. If you are not interested in reading about the situation any further, skip the thread. I didn't force you to click on the topic. I have every right to talk about it all I want to and you have every right to ignore it all you want to. :yucky:

-T

I was under the impression that the only DJ that would accept a gen dial is an MBW.

/Tim

They are still carrying on over at TZ about the fake BBs.

TZ BB Fakies

I've seen that red sweater around somewhere...

Of interesting note is a specific comment from JC Bi-valve himself:

Hummmm. Me thinks the man has no sense of humor. Little does he know about how throughly the BB has been faked at this point....

-T

That is a case of someone in a position of authority making a (correct) moral statement and using their position of authority to frighten people into obeying them. That does not make it a legally enforcable piece of legislation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, the various states in America can have widely varying local laws which are unenforceable above state level, and can always be overridden by a citizen's Constitutional Rights. As Andrew pointed out above, the Titanic is being eaten. It will eventually disappear. The legislation quoted about it's protection did not specify that people could not profit from it (that is a purely moral point) and, as I pointed out, someone could argue that by using pieces to create commemorative pieces, that is fullfilling the legislation's mandate to protect the Titanic's 'cultural and historical significance'. I agree 10000% that the watches should not be sold, and should only be given to families of those who died or survived, but, from a legal aspect, there is nothing preventing the company from making the watches.

Understand that I am just carrying on this discussion because it is interesting and I am not trying to be contrary.

Never said there was a law concerning the WTC scrap. It was an ethics issue and ethics are not necessarily legally enforceable. Although in both cases, I think there is some question as to the legality of the situation. With the WTC scrap, it actually belonged to the city of New York and they paid some scrap companies to haul it away -- to India of all places -- for recycling. But then there is the question of once the scrap was sold for recycling if NYC could assert a legal claim to the scrap as still being their property. Who knows. I personally would not want to stand in front of a jury however trying to prove that legal issue. You'd most likely be publically drawn and quartered in Times Square.

For the Titanic, it is an International Treaty and I do not know the ramifications of a private citizen breaking the terms of a treaty signed by the country of their citzenship. It would seem certain to me that there has got to be some sort of legal issues involved. But there are just four countries that are signatories to the treaty, and I would think it very likely that Titanic memorabilia would be a banned product just like ivory, conflict diamonds, and skins of endangered species.

-T

Two points of view. Is the Titanic a mass grave? No, the spot it went down is the grave. We didn't have any problem hauling away the tons of steel that was the world trade center did we?

Aside from that, for me the Titanic story that is represented to me is not the mass loss of human life, but the story of man vs nature. The Titanic was deemed unsinkable, certainly a cocky claim indeed. Its just a lifelong reminder that nothing man does is perfect. Its an important life lesson.

What they hauled away was scrap metal which they picked through to find as many bits as possible. They can take that metal, melt it down and make a pot out of it no problem. You take that same piece of metal, make a tchotchke out of it, say it's a hunk of the WTC thereby profiting off of the tragedy, and that is ethically wrong.

And in fact this happened. The Commissioner of the New York City Department of Design and Construction had to write a letter to three scrap companies telling them to stop this very activity stating that "It is unacceptable for manufacturers of medallions and other items to profit from that tragedy."

Good grief splitting hairs here. Is it that hard a concept to appreciate?

-T

...oh and what rep are you wearing to the ceremony?

Enjoy the re-wedding. Can your guests re-gift as well?

-T

Ok first of all thanks to all the well wishes

Now a little clarification, tomorrow is actually a re-newal of vows to celebrate our 10th wedding anniversary we decided to do the whole white wedding thing as we were originally married in a registry office in Fiji and as such not only did we miss all the hullaboo of a full wedding so did all our friends and family.

Ken

Eloped did ya? You might wish you did again! But I hope it is not a true white wedding....

-T

ethically its not the same, based upon psychology of the human brain.

here is the basic type of study that i'm talking about

Would You Kill A Fat Man?

...to save five other people?

So which is it Mr. Spock, do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one?

My ethical objection is to profit in such a situation. None of the situations cited involve profiting of off the death/suffering of another. If those five people PAID you to flip the switch or push the man, that would be wrong in either situation, yes? No dilemma involved at all.

Oh and if you did happen to flip that switch or push the man, expect the man's estate and family to sue the pants off of you for wrongful death. How is that for trying to help?

-T

One could argue that as the hull is being eaten away and will eventually disapear, by removing pieces and using them to create something which is indeed memorial to the original object, technically, that could be interpereted as "protecting the scientific, cultural and historical significance"...

As I said before, I think the watches should be given to the families of those who died (or descendents of survivors), rather than selling the watches to the general public.

Again, the principle involved is profiting off of the death/suffering of others. It would be totally appropriate to present an artifact to a descendant of one of the Titanic passengers. It would also be totally appropriate to maintain artifacts in a museum or a memorial. WTC mementos sold for profit are equally ghoulish and tacky.

-T

Well folks it's Songkran here in Thailand.....soaking wet for a week........pisses me off no end.....you can't go anywhere....Thais and farangs standing on EVERY street.....with buckets of icy water.....RPG sized squirt guns.....hoses.....and flour......throwing it all over you as you pass.......whether on foot....motorbike.....or car.......HELL I TELL YOU........HELL....!

And no Gubbamint offices or banks open for 5 days........no Post Office......so some of you guys........patience......I know I need it for Songkran......!

Trade you that for the Cherry Blossoms in Washington. At least you can go passive aggressive and squirt a tourist or two at your event.

-T

i thought it was cool before i knew it was the titanic.

your analogy is way off though you would make your point better with the hindenburg or ameila airhart or oceanic flight 815 or

There is a huge difference in human psychology relating to death that was the fault of the dead (i.e. they chose to get on the ship knowing accidents can happen)

as opposed to the cause of someone else trying to make them dead i.e. bombing buildings or japanese or boats in pearl harbor. Mentally its proven different when you account for age culture ect.

would you want a watch made out of a pirate ship? - that would be cool as [censored] right

what about ancient greek coins that sunk

all grave yards.

in Fact - the ground you walk on is a grave yard for something. Indians Grass Bugs dinosaurs punk ass TZ members who can't mind their own f-in business

Ethically it is all the same. The principle in question is profiting off the death and/or suffering of others. It is always inappropriate. My opinion. Others are always entitled to their opinion.

However in the United States, Canada, France and the United Kingdom you would be violating the law since:

The Swiss are not signatories to the agreement so, I guess profit is always more important to their culture or lack thereof.

-T