Tim

I second this motion, but I don't think our dealers could manage to stuff a seagull in there.

I caught sight of one of these a while back and said Wow!

/Tim

I can't count the number of times I've asked this. Where do you get the TW Best and MBWs? Or do you just have to recognise them by sight?

/Tim

Well isn't that great? A mistake was made... it hasn't been fixed or addressed and yet you want to move on to a new day. Using your rationale we should let murderers and child molesters free because they make mistakes. The time to prove integrity has passed and the evidence weighs against the "cartel."

Don't forget rape, genocide, and spitting on the sidewalk in Beijing. First a cheap watch movement, next thing you know truck bombs and beheadings. If only Saddam didn't wear badly faked Gucci sunglasses!

Can we not use extreme linkages in this thread? A bad watch run is not the same as the other things mentioned.

/Tim

In most cases, yes. I can't even pronounce the name of my dealer, but I still trust them. It's like companies that outsource call centers to India, and the employees all use Anglicanized names...

Yes, I am a network engineer by trade and when I ask a British accented tech support person how the weather is in Bangalore today and they answer sunny and nice, I promptly tell them that I am paying an arm and a leg for support and you need to kick me up to Tier 3 support which is always in the US. I will do many types of business with a global community but tech support from an American company that I am paying money to for support is not a business relationship that I will accept because they are being cheap b*stards exploting low cost labor.

This is a global economy today and we should learn how to pronounce these names or else we are indeed stupid zenophobic westerners.

/Tim

Tim, did Angus send you a reply after you posted the message on the board? If so, why doesn't Angus take part in the discussion? and in previous thread, maybe way in the beginning, someone had commented that Josh was looking at it. Why doesn't he reply? By only having Andrew come under the guns is bad, it is really "almost" admitting guilt. That part I do not get.......

Yeah I got Angus' explanation message this morning and I asked the moderators what I should do. I really don't want to mess up anyone's livelihood and it appears that the private message I reposted might put Angus in a difficult position. Like I said, I really don't know what to think at this point. If the original message is true it reflects very poorly on the way business is being conducted.

The original message has a ring of truth to it to me by the simple fact that the packages are being shipped from CN and yet the dealers are located in HK. How else could this work? If not Angus, then someone else. The "Makers" (I feel like I am dealing with the Architect from the Matrix!) must be using some sort of order consolidator because they are not going to fiddle with all this themselves.

The truth of the situation is that probably these guys have setup a mutual friendship/business relationship with each other to assist in their respective businesses. Quite probably it could have been that Andrew and Josh made seperate arrangements for fulfillment of orders. And then Angus saw some of the orders flying around him while he is doing business. So Angus then volunteers that he will assist the other dealers and, I don't know--maybe for a piece of the action???? One big happy family, and hey--let's get together for dinner when you are in the area. (I'll fatten up a dog and you bring the tiger penis. Yummy!)

So like I said I don't know what to think any longer.

One thing damit I wish we could stop doing is using Joshua, Andrew, and Angus when we are dealing with Chen, Lin, and Huang. When the hell did that ever start????? What, the stupid westerners feel more comfortable when dealing with Anglicanized names?

/Tim

On the contrary, I think that e-mail has EVERY bearing on the subject. The subject is the lying and misrepresentation that 4 dealers in question have been doing.

Not only do you not know if you will get the item as described by the dealer, but now you don

I've never commented on the number of e-mails that I receive asking for product......from people who are simply fed up with the aspect of drop shipping......everything from receiving the wrong watch....wrong dial colour....faulty product....not just once but 2 or 3 times over...or people who get watches that are eusty inside....or completely dry..........suer J & A will swap it out......but that's still a load of hassle to go thru'......it shouldn't happen in teh first place......I sold approx 250+ Noobmariners since last year.......of those I've had back DOA or faulty items....approx 8-9 watches......all you have to di slook thru the reviews....you'll see plenty of people complaining about my communication.....but not a lot about my QC....!

Were it not that you were such a Jock where I feared you'd bite my head off, I'd have ordered from you....

That, and I heard you wear kilts regimental style so I was never sure I wanted a watch from you after you touched it.

/Tim

I don't think a dealer scam section will work. First, one persons scam is anothers normal operations. Can you think of the the noobs who would be posting a scam notice everytime someone didn't answer an email within 30 minutes? Second if you report a dealer you shouldn't necessarily expect much future service from the dealer in question--except maybe to spit in your watch. Best bet is for us to be a united front because otherwise it is all just background chatter.

I voted for suspend them, but it might be handy to do something like RWI (THE HORRORS!) and have a dealer probation section. Remove the offending dealers from the recommended dealers list. List them as on probation with the reason (liars liars pants on fire). Kepp them there three months and if they improve great. If not, permanent ban.

/Tim

At the risk of splitting what is at the moment a united front, I still say that the lies are related to price. Price might not be the reason we object to being lied to, but if you read Andrew's justification for lying about the not-even-close-to-ETA2892 movement in the B&R is that if we'd actually wanted what they were claiming the watch had then they would had to increase the price. In other words if we wanted to live our fantasy, get a B&R and believe that the watch was good we could pay 'X', whereas if we wanted them to go to the 'great risk and trouble' to actually put in it what they claimed was already there the price would have been 'X+a lot more'.

And again, the thing they lost sight of is that many (if not most) of the buyers of the B&R project watch would have still bought one even if the price were higher. Sure, they would have lost a couple of sales but those would have been made up doubly once By-Tor, Pugwash, and others tore into the watches and reported a good product.

Speaking of which, and I think this was mentioned before, they had to have known that we, being who we are, would eventually tear into the watches. That is the puzzling part to me. Why did they think we wouldn't have a problem with this?

/Tim

Well! That was a lot to slog through. I didn't feel comfortable saying anything until I read the entire thread to ensure that none of my messages would be out of sequence.

I have one comment and one bit of information to add to the mystery.

My comment is that all I expect from the dealers is for them to be honest about what they are selling. And I think that is what everyone is saying. No sly little euphemisms or tricky language. Just say it like it is and I'll decide what I want. To add to that is that I wish the dealers would understand that there are multiple strata of buyers running around these forums. I am willing to pay extra for an honest QC which produces a consistent quality level. I am willing to pay extra for top quality movements. But there may be times, and it may be that some can only afford, a lesser movement or some inherent flaws in the reproduction. But the goods need to be described honestly. Sometimes I just want a watch to destroy so I can learn about them. I think the dealers would find that all their different product lines and quality levels will still sell. And everyone would be a lot happier.

I'd just be happy to get a well QC'd watch that has the parts as advertised. I just bought two YMs from a cartel dealer. I bought a higher quality "serviced" watch and on a subsequent order bought the same model not serviced. The serviced model cost almost twice as much. The unserviced watch keeps better time and has fewer "variances" from a gen (misaligned dial markers, sharp edges, and the like). So what did my extra money get me? Absolutely nothing that I can tell and if anyone asked me I'd tell them to buy the unserviced version and save your money.

So the bottom line in this for me is that all the dealers need to keep sight about the value added services. They could probably make more money if they offer a properly QC, mod'ed and serviced watch. Think along the lines of Davidson except perhaps a little more communicative (for the life of me I can't get Davidson to say what he has done to the watches he sells but they are obviously of a higher quality than the norm). The Zigmeister and others might not be as busy, but I am sure there is enough work out there for everyone.

For the tidbit of information. This is from a message I got from Angus. I post it very hesitantly because I am not especially comfortable with the ethics of reposting a private message. But this speaks too much towards the current situation such that I feel compelled:

--------------------------------------

EDITED: There was a copy of a private message between me and one of the dealers here. I felt that the message was extremely applicable to the conversation in this thread and I posted a copy although normally I wouldn't disclose a private message. The other party to the message however requested that I remove the message and that he didn't agree with making the conversation public. I felt ethically obliged to honor the request. Sorry. /Tim

------------------------------------------------

Interesting? Helps explain anything??

/Tim

I think you are better off buying a rep.

I don't understand the economics of it though for high end watches. They say normal wear and tear is expected. I am so careful with my gens because I know every scratch wacks off a chunk of value on the watch. I am careful because I own the thing though. If I didn't own it, it is just like a rent renting your house. They seldom care what happens to it.

/Tim

That's not whiskey, it's Akevitt! But you're right about the vintage SD.

Rye bread flavored Vodka. Sounds yummy, especially on a pitching boat.

Don't knock it till you try it I guess....

/Tim

Looks like The Zigmeister had a woody. Aren't you supposed to be packing???

/Tim

Any of our regular dealers will sel you one. The new style Rolex bracelet, with the improved clasp, are a bit more expensive though--like $60. Many of the other, like a standard Oyster can be had for $20.

/Tim

Well, it's Springtime, and the weather here has been very seasonal; nice, sunny days with nice high temps. Perfect for... Allergies. My sinus allergies have been going nuts, and it also appears that my allergy for high nickel content has also been heating up.

My Daytonas are both standard wear every day. And on one of them, I have a genuine 78390/503B bracelet, which also happens to be... 904L steel. Which also happens to have... Ugh... More nickel content. Which also happened to give me a nice little rash on my wrist

So... For now, I have this red, itchy wrist, and my white dial 16520 with aftermarket hollow link bracelet on my right wrist...

And the culprit....

Now, if you'll excuse me for a moment, it's sleepy time here at my office desk... I feel the Benadryl taking over...

ZzzZZZZzzzzZZZzz...

You sure it is the nickel? I heard Rolex got a good deal on some scrap metal left over from Chernobyl....

/Tim

Big wrists, even bigger hands, very active wheelchair user, great for upper and lower arm development, also the ultimate test of any watch movement.

So I take it that keeping the watch wound is not a problem. Can I use some other spots up your arms? Seems the area between the wrist and elsow should be fair game. I'll pay you what a Bergon winder would cost me!!

/Tim

Froggle is your friend in pricing all things!

But I can save you a step. jomashop.com in NYC has consistantly the best grey market prices. You can sometimes find good deal at bernardwatch.com and watchseller.com.

Zeetan is always a good bet too.

/Tim

Skinny wrists and wide hands?

Sounds more like gorilla hands and petite wrists. Definately the next step beyond "man hands".

Of course watch the poor gentleman have a physical condition and me ending up sounding like I am making fun....

Have you considered a NATO strap? Anyone here got a picture of their Seamaster on a NATO? I know there is a Bond Goldfinger version of the Submariner with a NATO strap on it.

/Tim

Wish I could leave mine closed, cant get watch over my hand unless I undo diver extension, it does work loose, but you can get it tight again with a little tweak with a screwdriver. I have the same problem with Gen Seamaster and the replica Seamaster chrono.

Josh or Andrew will sell you an entire bracelet for $20 or $25. Buy one and scavenge extra links from it. It will also give you an extra clasp for when your's gets too beat up. Make sure you tell them if you need pins or screws.

/Tim

Nanuq is the one hiding under the bow with a bottle of whiskey wearing a fake Sea Dweller. See him?

The trick with the diver's extension is not deplying it (that is easy) but in properly closing it.

To deploy the extension, all you need to to is press your thumb over the end of the clasp, and the extension should drop down.

When you come to close it up, DO NOT try to fold it closed as you would a normal clasp. You must fold the section closest to the clasp completely flat back against the clasp, and then move the second section back around to lock over the end of the clasp. If you examine the extension, you will see that the second section has a tiny lip on the end (you might need to fold the two sections at 90 degrees to each other to see this) When the first section is properly in place, it is this lip, which goes under a piece in the clasp to hold the extension flat when it is locked in place. If you do not have that lip under the retainer, and simply fold it shut, when you fold the rest of the clasp shut, it will be harder to close, and have a tendency to spring open. Sorry for such a long-winded explanation, it really is a very simple thing. Have a very good look at the extension while it is still closed, deploy it very slowly, and you will see what I mean Once you figure how it is actually supposed to close, it is no trouble at all to operate. Way easier than the diver's extension on a Submariner (Ripped my thumb to shreds once trying to deploy that in the 'factory approved manner' Just another reason why I prefer Omega over Rolex)

I agree that many people do not get the lip properly put away and that is a problem. That one is easily solved by looking it over as you try to shut it. You'll see how it needs to be shut when you see that lip ontop of the bar it usually rests under. The problem is further down the clasp with the mechanism used to snap the clasp shut and keep it closed. This works on most of the divers clasp through a pinch in the metal--or in some other versions a long nub molded in the metal.

The issues is that first some of these nubs or pinches are not formed very well out of the box. The second issue is that as you use the clasp, this nub will wear down and get to the point where there isn't enough of it left to securely hold against the slot in the opposite tine of the clasp. Then you are forced to get a punch and hammer out to increast the size of the nub; or sometimes it works if you take the entire clasp apart and use a screwdriver to slightly expand the part of the clasp closest to the bracelet. And that would be a temporary solution at best.

A good view of the mentioned "lip" is in this picture:

A good view of the nub and slot is on the third picture of this series:

This is a genuine bracelet so you can see that the original design is not much better. Instead of nubs, Omega should have put small spring loaded ball bearings in this area to ensure a durable clasp is maintained after repeated use.

So easiest solution is just not to use the damn thing. Problem averted.

/Tim

I am stupid as I can't figure out how to deploy divers extension. i don't dive and don't need it but love to [censored] with me toy!

Best advice is if it is now shut, keep it that way. The Omega reps do not have the sturdiest design on the divers clasp. There are two or three different versions, but a small pinch in the metal is all that is keeping it shut. If you yank on the clasp hard enough it will come open but it will loosen in the process and you might never get it to stay securely shut again. Just be pleased that it is there and leave it at that.

/Tim

That was great. I voted for bush twice Yeah, after this second term I am thinking what the hell did I do That was great, thanks for sharing.

Well, you can always save yourself up for Jeb. Why not a third?

/Tim

Too funny!

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story...piracies/print/

The depth of stupidity exhibited by large swaths of American citizenry is the only thing we need fear in this country.

/Tim

Doxa watches are great. I am searching for a yellow dial Doxa. This guys feedback sucks though.

Agreed, I've seen this seller in action before when someone I knew tried to buy a watch from him. Not a pretty transaction, very difficult.

/Tim