RickFlorida

crystals and bezels are such a pain the ass to settle.  So I have a MQ vietnam 5513 that is supposed to fit as genuine. It sure does for my Rolex movemement, the Rolex casing screws, Rolex case tube.  Everything there fits perfect.  However, I use a Clarks aftermarket bezel, retaining ring, and tension washer.   I can't get any tropic 19 crystals to fit except for one of the GS.   The really popular one and I get it from Otto Frei. There are 2 or 3 different sized tropic 19's from GS brand alone!  I have tried many other crystals all except for the German Sternkruz or however you spell it.  But I've never been able to get a single damn other cyrstal to fit.  They are too tight or too loose. But I suspect it's the Clark aftermarket bezel kit I have that is the problem.  I had to sand down the inside of the retaining ring or it was still too tight on the crystal and would crack it. I have that sorted out now but I can't turn my bezel.  With the tension washer on, it's too tight!  

Only ETA's have ever been perfectly cloned unfortunately.  I just wish China would at least perfectly clone balances like Rolex balances or the main plates but they just only clone things that are convenient.  it looks like the 75% cloned Rolex 3135 is the best we will ever get but like 75 or 85% of the parts are interchangeable but that is it.

1 hour ago, curiousbunny said:

What software is it? We can pirate a free MatLab, license is $2000 but easily found online. maybe github.

From what I understand, when technicians reverse engineer something into a CNC step file by precision 3d scanning, they of course first scan the items internally and externally (the watch case should be easy to scan with the caseback off for the internals), it is then created into a "point cloud" for th eoverall surfaces external and internal.  But then it needs to be put into something like SolidWorks or one of the Auto Cads like you mentioned.

I have Fusion 360 which can be used to create toolpath codes for CNC so maybe I will try this summer to see how far I get.

Good idea.   In order to 3d scan the internal contours correctly and get it all correct like the half moon shaped cut out for the Rolex casing screws, you need a very specific type of 3d Scanner. I forgot the brands but only like 2 brands make a scanner for high precision details.  Plus, it's a lot of work and skill to then turn that into a CNC file.   Now luckily, we could tell the technician that the caseback screw threading is 31 mm diameter and 0.5 pitch metric size with 60 degree thread profile.  And we all know the thread for the casetube is 3.00 mm x .35 pitch.  This way, after the super high resolution 3d Scanning does it's job of the internal and external contours, the technician should be able to create a CNC file for us to simply upload to any service to produce it from stainless stock.

Another idea I have is perhaps we could find a young person who is going to engineering school and has access to the software to do this.

3 hours ago, curiousbunny said:

 

TC Sub had the perfect 1;1 case from China, before going legitimate becoming Ginault. 

 

Standard CNC is 0.005 inches / 0.12mm accuracy, pushing 0.0005 inches for more advanced factories. There is literally no reason they couldn't 0.99:1 a watch by now other than rep-factories using old tools.  China has the highest number of CNC operations for decades being the world's factory. The only explanation would be, these rep factories are old watch factories struggling to sell in age of cellphones and android/apple watches.

 

 

 

 

 

I think I see what you mean. But you do realize that the mass production we see with excellent replication skills is never for vintage Rolex, right? That is the frustrating part. But as you kind of mention in your other posts, it's all amount quantity to make the costs low.   I tried to have my sterile Vietnam 5513 case 3d Scanned and made into a CNC file, (I had MQ make me a sterile version of the 5513 case thinking it would be less risk if I have local watchmakers service my Rolex 1520 movement), but the cost way too high for a school teacher like me.  I had quotes of like 3,000 on average just to high resolution scan the case and caseback but then also have it built into a CNC file so that all you had to do was press a button or email the file and someone could reproduce the parts.   I suppose we could pool our money and have a perfect case and caseback 3d scanned and made into a CNC file and then those that chip in would have the file ready to go if we want a vintage rolex case.  The other other problem is if you only have one case and caseback made even if you have the CNC step file, the cost to make one unit may exceed the Vietnam 5513 case.  This is another reason I gave up.

I have friended like 12 Chinese wholesalers of replica watches on Facebook. I've asked every single one of them if they could please find me a 1:1 vintage rolex case.  Every single one of them has said no. So yes, you are correct that China has the capabilities as you mention.  But they are 100% not making vintage rolex cases, at least the finished ones.  I have found out from an Italian watchmaker what the thread and pitch is of the 5513 and 1680 Rolex case.  But that's as far as I got.

Good points, Ronin.  And let me please add that not only does Helenarou have to have someone make his caseback that does fit 5513 but is clearly different than the more rounded casebacks of Vietnam, but when Yuki was making cases, he too had a totally different case in my opinion from these Vietnam cases.  Now, it has been speculated that Phong shapes the cases after they are made from the Vietnam source. But was Yuki really doing that?   I don't know why I think this but I feel like Yuki and Helenarou didn't have the same source of the Vietnam cases.   I still have a gut feeling the current vietnam cases do not come from China. Or at the very least, they are not coming from a large mass production facility.  But I have no real proof and am just going by my gut.

On 4/14/2021 at 1:06 AM, curiousbunny said:

Let me tell you a secret. The vietnam cases are built in Guangdong, China, Not Vietnam.  Guangdong and southern China has been the technically advanced manufacturing hub for decades.  Most TD get reps from more north. Li/Jtime's case is built in Guangdong, Yuki parts are from Hong Kong. Many suppliers in the south are small time rep makers, but big time legitimate product makers. CNC and laser trimming can easily replicate any watch.

 

 

 

 

I have heard this theory that the Vietnam cases of MQ and Rubytime are perhaps of Chinese origin.  But I am not convinced without careful considerations of the specs.  First, if China is the origin, then why doesn't Helenarou sell the Vietnam quality case? He even has to make his own 5513 caseback but he refuses to try and make an accurate case. (The vietnam 5513 caseback is made by someone else than the Helenaround 5513 caseback).  Secondly, I will say that since the crown guards are left a little too thick, (but are close to late year 5513 cases like 1989 or 1990 5513 crown guards), this does indicate that perhaps the cases are originally made from mass produced stock like in China.  But let's go a little further, shall we?  The MQ, Ruby Time, and there are a  few more dealers from Vietname plus Phong have cases that not only perfectly fit the Rolex 15xx for perfect stem height, but they even have the perfectly made "half moon" shaped cut out for the Rolex case screws that slide around the movement. If China is the origin of the case, is it really correct that someone is just further cutting away to make all of these specs correct?  Or are you saying that a rough block version of the case is made in China and before the internals are cut out for any movement, the rough block is sold to these Vietnam merchants?  Any why are these Vietnam merchants the only people buying these Chinese cases?   To me, a little more evidence exists that the origin of the case is Vietnam more than China. But, the fact that the crown guards are left too thick does say there is a single source which I guess could be China. But I would say at the very least, these Vietnam cases that fit Rolex 15xx movements must be sold in very rough and uncut stages to be made correctly.  Otherwise, if they are cut out for ETA 2824 or 2836 DG 2813.... I just don't see how they could be then perfectly made to fit Rolex.

Lastly, if China really is the source of these Vietnam cases that can be cut out to fit Rolex, then for God's sake, why can't we buy some of the rough cuts ourselves and machine them on our own please?

Thanks for all the advice. I now agree to just enjoy it and live with it. Thanks! Hopefully e30m3 finds a solution as well. Good luck!

Sorry I meant the tube that is part of the crown that holds the stem piston/clutch spring.  But thank you .  Yeah the generic 703 case tubes are identical to genuine.  I was trying to save this crown and meant the tube that is part of crown that holds the stem piston is destroyed.  No loss as the crown was already buggered.  

11 hours ago, freddy333 said:

Hard to tell without seeing the dial. Can you post a good, clear pic?

Thank you for asking. Here is my vietnam dial with minute and hour hands it came with. I believe my second hand is original or at the very least, it's an older replacement of some type. When the local watchmaker serviced my 1520, he said the second hand they sent me was wrong.  So he gave me this second hand and kept the vietname second hand that didn't fit. Perhaps he sent me a Tudor/ETA second hand? So anyways, I got this older looking second hand so it would be pretty awesome if my watchmaker gave me an original second hand when he serviced my watch. But back to the problem..... I don't think you can tell from this photo or not but in direct light, you can tell that my dial is a little blue or grey and not black enough.  It really bothers me.  I think the easiest solution is to just get a different vietnam dial that looks more black. But since I really like the mk3 lollipop matte dial (the lume plots are a little bigger), I thought I should ask about reprinting and then having it relumed like mk3 lollipop dial.

It was difficult to be sure but when the tube sheared off, it sheared off exactly flush to where it was inserted deeper into the back of the crown. So however it is attached, it's strong as hell.   I wonder if the crown was not genuine but one of those high quality aftermarket 703's?   Anyone have experience taking apart those?   Just curious.   I'll just replace it.  I see used 703 crowns for like 60 to 80 bucks.  I'm not happy with the crown tube of the Athaya 702. It's very flimsy and has less gaskets than a 703 tube.  But I do think the Athaya 702 crown itself looks great and I currently use one on a watch. But the first time I ever saw a 703 tube and the way it looks and feels, I'm much more impressed with this construction.

Good point that we probably not use brand new glowing lume on vintage dial. But in my particular case, what I really don't like about my Vietname 5513 dials is that in person, it is a little more blue or grey than black.   This is something I don't think I can fix without it being reprinted or just getting a new dial.   I don't think spraying matte varnish will make it look more black, correct?

Well the good news is that I didn't ruin the clutch spring by using heat. I just used force.  The bad news is that the larger tube completely sheared off and torn (is destroyed).  I don't think it was threaded in at all. I think it was soldered in or pressed in.  I am also not 100% sure this is a 703.  Is the 704 maybe soldered in?    The crown came on a very nice genuine 1520 rolex movement from a professional watchmaker.  But he used it as a "dummy crown" since the threads were bad.  I will have to buy a new crown now but at least the crown was already bad before I made it worse.

6 minutes ago, automatico said:

 

 

Every crown I have taken apart was the older type with 'bottle caps' crimped over the crown frame and the crown post always unscrewed from the crown.  They might have thread locker of some type on them because some were hard to get apart and I did give up on getting a few to come apart. 

Heating the crown cap might help but it could damage the clutch spring.  

 

 

Ah, very good point that heating the crown to loosen what I think is threadlocker present may ruin the clutch spring. And we can't buy or find the separate parts for rolex crowns so the only good decision is to try and unscrews it without heating it. Thanks for thinking of that.  My last question is this...... When you guys say to use the pin vise on the crown post, are you guys just crimping the skinnier post that the stems actually screw into and I have to lock that down and then unscrew? I thought I should be crimping down on the larger/fatter tube that the up and down piston that you screw the stem slides in and out of.  Judging by the pictures of the tutorial, the larger tube seems to directly screw into the back of the crown.

On 4/11/2021 at 4:08 PM, automatico said:

 

"Just for a follow up....I would definitely only recommend using a pin vise instead of crushing the tube with a large vise unless you intend to not reuse the part that is getting crushed."

 

Good advice.

I use a collet in an old 8mm 'watchmaker' lathe.  The collets are made in .1mm steps and are high precision so they will not slip and damage the crown post.  Most hobby guys do not have one but most old timer repair guys do and many will let you use the lathe for 5 minutes to unscrew a crown post.  You do not use any electrical power, you just snug the crown post in the proper collet with the drawbar and back the crown cap off with your fingers while holding the lathe pulley with the other hand.  If the crown cap is too tight, wrap the cap with leather or something to protect the finish and use pliers etc.

 

Clean the parts and use a new crown cap gasket.  Old style crowns with steel or gold 'bottle caps' are usually made of nickel silver and are pretty soft so the threads are easy to damage.

I usually try to apply a smidgen of Loctite to the threads where the post screws into the cap but my guess is it does not do much good if it gets mixed up with lube etc.  For this reason I run a very small amount of oil down into the crown post between the telescoping part that screws on the stem and the crown post...after the Loctite has had time to set.  I've had a few come unscrewed so I went to Loctite.  It seems to help.

 

I always worried about new crown cap gaskets because they just flop around between the end of the case tube and crown cap.  They can get crosseyed and damaged but usually they stay put.  I tried to cement a few to the crown cap with sticky gasket goo but it made a mess so I gave up on it.

It's just something else to worry about...and another reason to wear a G-Shock.   

Thank you for the specific advice!  I tried it this morning with some quality pin vices and I have a very nice 3 jawed chuck that is precision made for my jewelry equipment (I make jewelry as a hobby), but the large tube we are trying to remove that goes into the crown would not come off.  Are these reverse threaded by any chance?  And they are in fact threaded into the crown? I have a  genuine 703 and not the older crown in the original tutorial. I assume they are similar construction.  But I wonder if 703 and 704 come with threadlocker on that part from the factory so I will use some heat next. But I thought I better ask if they are cross threaded and if we are certain that large tube is not soldered onto the crown.

I was curious if there are other movements/watches that use a full day window like the Rolex president but perhaps in ladies sizes? I was thinking of building or getting a watch for my wife that has the full name of the day displayed like a president. It doesn't necessarily have to be automatic, quartz is okay.   I think that full day display window design is really neat.  Thanks.

13 hours ago, curiousbunny said:

 

Did he say 350 euro? For a relume? In Poland? That's like american asking for $850

Luckily, he adjusted it to U.S. dollars for me knowing where I am and specifically said 350 U.S. Dollars.  It's Renowacja company Poland. I heard from watchmakers they are recommended. It's not just relume. He said he would reprint the dial to make it more accurate and black, and then lume it better.  I'm not sure if it's worth it though since it's just a vietnam dial so with 185.00 already in it, then plus 350 to make it better...... Is it crazy to do it?   On the other hand, a genuine 5513 dial is like 1100 dollars now.  So even at 500 total, a nice looking dial for my genuine 1520 Rolex movement is not crazy.

I just don't see any white looking Vietnam or other source 5513 dials for genuine rolex movements.

Just for a follow up....I would definitely only recommend using a pin vise instead of crushing the tube with a large vise unless you intend to not reuse the part that is getting crushed.  I would think it's almost impossible not to deform that part if you use a large benchtop vise.  

8 hours ago, P4GTR said:

 

Here's a thought... Order a white non patina version. By the time it arrives via 4PX it will be vintage and the month or two of shipping (for $35) inside a container ship at 200 degrees will provide for a perfect patina lume.

I think it's harder to get white Vietnam lumed 5513 or 1680 dials than you think.  At least the guy I use from Ho Chi Minh only has various shades of yellow or brown.   I specifically asked him for a white 5513 lumed dial and he said he has none.  And when you look on eBay, all of the Vietnam dials are without white Lume as well. 

If I get a chance I suppose I can post a picture but it isn't just the plots that I want whiter.   When I purchased my Vietnam Dial, the guy in Ho Chi Minh let me pick out my dial from his many dials by whatsapp images.  Which was great and I got to pick out what I wanted. But when I got the dial in hand and installed in my watch, I now realize the matte black is much too grey and not black compared to just about any 5513 dial.  I know we can fret over little things and get obsessive in this rabbit hole of looking for perfection.  But I just think my dial is too grey and the well known refinisher in Poland told me he can make the dial more accurate in addition to using quality new lume.   I know here in America, we have crap loads of dial makers who will make those datejust diamond dials jobs all day long but I don't see any American places online that reprint matte dials and hand lume them.  Do they not advertise like the crap tone of datejust or president diamond dial guys?

I'm in the same boat.  Got a Vietnam dial and I'm just learning more that it's not very accurate.   I looked into having the dial reprinted and lumed white but only found a well known dial restorer in Poland so far.  He quoted 350.  Is there anyone in America that refinished matte dials and relumes?  Shipping from Eastern Europe took 3 months last time I bought something 

Thank you so much Freddy!  Holy crap I love you for this.      Your pictures and explanation are perfect, I see it is indeed threaded so I can remove it, then I can deburr or remove the very first part of the thread, then put it all back together with a new gasket.

Thanks!

I found this fantastic image but it doesn't really how how the larger tube in installed on the crown.  It says the smaller part (piston clutch ring) is soldered to the sleeve of the crown. But it doesn't say how the largest tube on the crown is secured to the crown. Is that larger part pressed fit, soldered, or screwed in?

I have a genuine 703 crown that I want to use.  But the very first internal thread that goes onto the tube has it's first .1 or .2mm deformed.  The entire rest of the thread looks fine so it's a shame to throw away or never use.  (It will not screw onto tubes, even brand new tubes that I have tried due to that deformed first .1 or .2mm of thread).

I saw online that a jeweler says he sometimes uses a lathe or a file to remove some of the first thread to use the crown.  This crown I have is a perfect candidate but to me, there is not a good way to deburr that beginning of the thread without removing the clutch spring pusher.  Can it be removed or are these permanently pressed in or something?  I don't understand how they are constructed.  With a ultra small lathe tool, I suppose you can deburr without removing the clutch spring pusher. But with a file, you need more room I think.

Thanks for any advice.

Rick

I would like to be able to replace old and tired knurled pins in an oyster bracelet but wasn't sure if it's really possible with those fancy Jubilee and oyster pin removing tools that cost up to 800 bucks.   Has anyone make their own tool to separate the Oyster links of a 93150 bracelet and then replace the knurled pins?  I suppose it's a matter of evenly separating the pins from the top and the bottom.  I'm patient and would rather build a jig than pay 400 to 800 bucks for the tool.

I think the Jubillee separating tool actually is the more complicated tool to build comparted to the Oyster but it's hard to tell just from photo graphs.   I almost am tempted to buy one, then take all the measurements, and then return it and try to build my own.  But has anyone found a fast way to do this? (remove the links and replace without a really fancy jig )?

On 3/24/2021 at 7:00 AM, netniet said:

Got this gen replacement dial in my franken build

That is an extremely nice dial.  I love it. But I don't know if that is a lollipop dial Mk3.  The dial plots are the same size as other maxi dials.  But wow, nice dial!