Brightight

Yes indeed Alan (Offshore) is one of the best in my opinion! Good luck with the shop Alan, and no doubt I will be a customer now and again if not more often!

Ah, we didn't read the question properly Personally I would remove the day wheel, there is a little clip in the centre, but none of the mechanism which is sort of integral with the date change stuff.

Yes, it is thought provoking, at least the thought provoked me for a while That's why I thought I'd get some more brains on the issue.

I think we're straying from the point slightly. It's not so much what Rolex think of a Franken, but what the legal situation is. For example in Italy where rep watches are highly illegal and large penalties are available for owning one. I feel sure that legally any collection of parts where those actually marked 'Rolex' are genuine, those not marked are aftermarket, is, while possibly not a gen in any way, not an illegal rep but a modified or assembled legitimate watch. To me the whole point about a rep being counterfeit is it is composed of parts marked illegally with the gen manufacturer's name or mark. With reference to Rolex swapping out but keeping or destroying non genuine parts (or genuine for that matter) while servicing, I doubt they would actually get away with this in Europe (though please say if you know otherwise) based on the situation with for example car servicing/repair where it is a legal requirement that parts replaced are available for inspection after the job is completed, and will be returned to the owner if he or she wishes. Anything else is seen as fraud and theft. I know some companies in the guitar business for example, follow a similar process in that they will not supply you with a new part until you return the old part to them. However this is more a process of insuring that parts sold are for genuine use on the original guitar and not to be used for making a counterfeit.

Every time bar none I've been asked if my Rollie rep is genuine, I've shown them the watch and said "Look at the way the second hand goes round, does that look like a fake to you?". I never say it is or isn't fake. As most people have this perception that fake watches have the quartz 'tick' this is enough to convince them! But probably 99% of people don't notice what watch you're wearing and even less make any comment at all.

Well I'm interested, and have copied it away for future reference. But then I'm weird

Totally agree with jmb. I use 30 minute expoxy to glue the overlay on, allows plenty of time for minor adjustments. Just be careful to use very small amounts and don't get any blobs, or any 'strings' of expoxy in the movement!! It is very difficult incidentally to fit the datewheel after the overlay has been applied as the overlay is bigger than the original wheel and covers up the day detent spring which has to be pulled back when fitting the complete DW.

I think the analogy as relates to warranty is fine, though as I said earlier, Manufacturers in Europe would not get away with as much nowadays, but I'm talking about watches that are long out of warranty and whether having non Rolex parts which are not marked as Rolex or purport to be genuine Rolex parts makes the Franken counterfeit. Yes Rolex could and would argue it was no longer a Rolex and would refuse to service it but I doubt legally it would be in any way counterfeit and therefore illegal. The ship of Theseus I know as my grandfather's broom, which has had the head replaced 20 times and the handle replaced 15 times but is still my grandfather's broom. But philosophy on a watch forum? Only if it's Monty Python's Philosophers song And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart, "I drink therefore I am"

I totally agree with you on the enjoyment of sourcing the parts Lani, but I'd add to that putting them together to make something worthwhile that actually works as god and nature intended! I am still relatively new to reps, just a few years, and I have now stopped buying reps altogether as I buy them, wear them a short time, then into the watch drawer they go. Stuff I build from parts is different, I have a lot invested in them in terms of effort and hours spent scanning ebay, maybe buying a movement with problems and fixing it, and this give me a great deal of pleasure and I tend to wear such watches regularly. @Freddy - yes I guess you're right about prematurely forecasting Rolex's end. I just have a thing about the Deepsea, something I've never felt about previous 'new' models. It's as if they said, let's build a big watch, we needn't bother making a bigger dial, we'll just put in a spacer with some printing on it. I know it's causing quite a stir on the rep forums with people fighting over themselves to get the next version, but to me it is a watch only its mother could love!

Generally speaking, we are not talking about watches (or cars!) still within their warranty period. I have no reason to doubt what Freddie says, therefore I believe it, about the US legislation which gives Rolex preferential treatment. If anyone knows these things, for sure Freddie does. I very much doubt Rolex would get away with such treatment of customers in tbe EU though. They must be quaking in their boots after the car servicing and warranty legislation. Imagine if you could take your brand new Rollie to a Mom and Pop watch shop and have it serviced, including the fitting of pattern parts (as long as they were of merchantable quality and the service was carried out to the Rolex schedule) and Rolex would still have to honour the warranty!! I must say I have a dichotomous view of Rolex. I admire them greatly for their history, design, search for perfection, and their past marketing strategies which have made them the most desirable of watches to the majority of people. On the other hand I think they are now stuck with old fashioned marketing strategies and their refusal to change will be the end of them eventually. Not to mention that dreadful abortion, the DSSD! (In my humble, but correct, opinion!) They put me in mind of traditional Insurance Companies who stuck with the Insurance Broker model when all about them were going to direct phone and online selling, the latest manifestation being the Insurance comparison sites, which one or two dinosaurs, even ones who were first in the direct selling format, still refuse to support.

Interesting! However I'm sure legislators would not distort the law for the bribe of a watch, must be another reason...............

As a matter of interest, and just to show the differences in law, the European Union outlawed the practice where car manufacturers would only honour a warranty if the car was serviced by Authorised Dealers. The law now says the warranty is upheld as long as the car is serviced according to the manufacturer's service schedule. I tend to think that's a little unfair as the dealers have to maintain a stock of special tools, spare parts, and have properly qualified personnel, which of course does not apply to the independent who you get to do your servicing at half the price, but that's the law such as it is!

I'm not familiar with the car, but terminology is not the question. Is it a counterfeit and therefore is it illegal and will the manufacturer take action against you. It comes down to your rights of ownership. I had a friend years ago who had an old Ferrari with a blown engine. While he saved up to buy the parts he needed, he slotted a Ford V6 in there so he could use the car. Was it still a Ferrari? Well it did have all the badges and it looked like a Ferrari. It might have been a travesty and certainly did not perform or sound like a Ferrari. But was it a counterfeit? And would Ferrari have taken him to court over it? To both of those questions my answer would be no. It's all hypothetical anyway and Freddy has clarified the law in the US, I just find it amazing that Rolex can insist on the owner maintaining a watch in original condition with genuine Rolex parts fitted on every occasion.

Wow! Does that apply only to watches? I can see all sorts of problems if you fit for example a set of aftermarket wiper blades to your car and that makes it counterfeit......................... Sounds a bit like software licences, they will 'sell' you the watch but it is not yours to do what you will with it. Very strange. It's amazing that the law upholds the manufacturer's rights to the product after sale. This is the law as it applies in the UK - "What does the law say? It is unlawful to apply a registered trade mark to goods, or to make an exact copy of goods which have the benefit of a registered trade mark registration, without the permission of the trade mark owner. Even where goods are not subject to a trade mark registration, it is sometimes still possible to bring an action against someone making copies of goods, or attaching marks to goods, without the permission of the person already trading in those goods and associated marks. This is called a 'passing-off' action. You may still be able to use your statutory rights against the seller

Yes there was a post recently on this subject regarding France. Fortunately the UK takes the view that it is the manufacturers and sellers they have to target. What the situation will be eventually as far as European law goes is anybody's guess as far as I know. I think it's probably likely we'll see more, rather than less, clamping down on counterfeit products in future, though I think watches are far down the list which starts with counterfeit drugs, counterfeit aircraft parts, etc. Yes I think you're safe with your project! Again it is an interesting hypothetical issue. But in future after the project is completed, when a noob asks who has the best sub, we'll be able to say you do, but it isn't a sub!!

Some good clarification there mbjoer. I would guess I will be OK with my Franken Datejusts. I have to travel throughout Europe and beyond on occasion so it might be important some day, particularly in Italy or possibly France, where it is actually illegal to own a rep. Tee-Jay I suppose the only danger, and it is highly unlikely, is if Rolex objected and it came to court, they court may order the offending parts destroyed rather than just made sterile.

Your painting analogy seems to me exactly the same as making a rep, the parts have all been made and marked to 'resemble' the original. To me the Franken seems more like an artist who takes an original painting and maybe puts on a new frame, or paints in an extra character. That wouldn't be forgery. And of course what I am doing is the same effectively as Rolex did with Tudor. I wouldn't think Ford, in my example, would have any legal right to make me replace a Ford engine in my car with another the same, nor would Ford be able to stop me buying a scrap Ford and modifying it out of sight with all sorts of components but still wearing a Ford badge. In short I can understand a complete rep watch or Rolex marked parts such as dial or caseback being counterfeit but I can see no way genuine parts coupled with non genuine, but not 'Rolex' marked parts, can be described as a forgery. I would argue it is a Rolex watch which has been modified, not a fake Rolex. It's an interesting dilemna. Oh while I think of it your project could be considered either way, it depends what Rolex have rights on. For example, in the guitar world, Fender have rights on the Telecaster and Stratocaster headstock shape. Copy it, you'll get served a cease and desist notice followed by legal action if you don't change it. The Chinese of course ignore this I doubt Rolex have rights on anything that would stop you though, most of their features are common to other watches and not distinctive enough to be patented.

I didn't wish to hijack the very interesting thread on taking a rep into an AD and the legalities thereto, but it struck me, where do Frankens fit in the 'counterfeit' scheme of things legally, so opened a new thread. I am building a couple of DJ Frankens at the moment, they have gen cases, crystal, crown, bezel, dial, an ETA movement and hands and a datewheel overlay. Given that I don't try to sell them misrepresenting them as 100% Rolex, are they legal or illegal? Am I actually guilty of counterfeiting? In the same way that I could have a Ford something and shoehorn a Rover V8 into it, it would not be illegal (as long as it met the relevant regulations), I could conceivably have an old DJ which got wet inside and wrote off the movement and couldn't afford the new Rolex part on such an old watch so fitted an ETA instead. What about an NDT case with a gen movement and dial, would that be illegal? At what point is a watch a counterfeit and which a 'modified' gen? How would an AD view such a watch assuming they could tell the difference from the very slight differences in the non gen parts (which could of course be pattern Rolex parts on a gen, particularly on a 30 year old watch).

Preacher that's a good tip! And a good price too. I'll try that on my next requirement.

I tried making some by scanning in an existing one actual size, then blowing up and repairing the flaws before laser printing out on white paper which was then sprayed with clear acrylic lacquer to give it some rigidity. It was good enough to prove the process, and a blind man running for his life would have been unable to distinguish between the original and my efforts. However I could tell the difference and it just wasn't good enough. If I had and could use CAD software and had access to a decent laser printer, maybe, but I don't As to whether the Cubic Works ones are accurate enough, I don't know, I just followed up a suggestion somewhere on the forum. They have open 6 and 9. I thought it was worth blowing $19 each on a couple to try, just waiting for them to arrive. The type of movement should make no difference I believe.

Beautiful! I wonder if the fashion will swing back to smaller watches?

http://www.cubic-works.com/watchtools/index.html Select "Repair Tools, Spring Bar, Watch Crown and Others" On the new page 4 rows down.

I love those linen dials, pure class! Couldn't find one for a decent price so I've gone for a silver one in the meantime. That's got to be the ultimate DJ for me Freddy, linen dial and white gold fluted bezel. I'm drooling.........

I love the DJs. My personal favourite feature is the white gold fluted bezel, I got one for my first DJ Franken and it looks sooooo good I'm thinking of getting another for the second Franken. Congratulations on the purchase, that dial is stunning!

You've probably already spotted it but here's one for $1100 - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RARE-JAMES-BOND-ROLEX-SUBMARINER-CALIBER-1030-MVMT_W0QQitemZ170384727664QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item27abb89e70&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177