MJP Posted September 15, 2006 Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 I left the photo big so you can do your own zooming. I just got the new one yesterday (right). Any close up requests, LMK. There are improvements, but all in all, I don't like it--it's on the shoddy side. I'll let you pick out the problems. One particular problem to this unit is a splotchy 9 at the 6 o'clock. Slightly better movement though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Posted September 15, 2006 Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 The old one though has completely wrong fonts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted September 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 (edited) Look at both "12"s, the date number, the mini size of the 3 o'clock sub numbers, the "55". The numbers in general are more splotchy on the new one, the older ones are imprinted better. I really hate the thin date font that they use on a lot of these--not only does it not match, it's hard to read--at least the old one has a nice fat date like the original. The new one definately has a more accurate "Lumin...Daylight". Also the concentric grooved subdials are better. They both have problems, 4 sure. but if you have them both in your hand you can see better what I'm talking about. Maybe I got a bum one. "No sir, I don't like it" --Mr. Horse Edited September 15, 2006 by MJP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted September 15, 2006 Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 The one on the left has the wrong bezel and CG finish (should be brushed) but has better date font. It looks like both have wrong spelling on Tachymeter. THe odd thing is that gen 250 spells it "Tachymeter" and gen 251 spells it "Tachymetre". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted September 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 (edited) The one on the left has the wrong bezel and CG finish (should be brushed) but has better date font. It looks like both have wrong spelling on Tachymeter. THe odd thing is that gen 250 spells it "Tachymeter" and gen 251 spells it "Tachymetre". I was a little confused during the ordering and research process of what is a 196 or a 250. I thought that the one on the left was a 196, but then my dealer calls that an older style 250. What I wanted was brushed metal bezel, OPan's site: the "00250" Edited September 15, 2006 by MJP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest eddielee11 Posted September 15, 2006 Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 (edited) both are good pieces both are from different manufacturers. 1st version--made by the "1950 moljina movt " maker, or the first generation 92, 24, or the earlier submersible... the later version --made by the make who makes the pam 187, 196, 183, 217 ,,,, it all depends which one u like personally. u r the one who will be wearing the piece. u got to learn to live the flaws. Do appreciate the reps. They have come a long way. Like u are going out with a hot babe with fake 40dd implant. ..you know the pair is fake,,,but i am sure there are flaws....the crown guard ...opps. ..i mean the groove is too deep ...a big flaw.... u can bury your face down the groove....and u get suffocated...but die as a happy man.... or before the implant,,,30A size....u can bury your face down there as it is like JFK international airport ...flat....but the flaw is ,,,it is too flat....then the plus side...u will not suffocate ... the new 250 has sapphire serial . correct marking all correct marking. it is heavier ,,,i dont know why.... again both have no ar. brushed casing Edited September 15, 2006 by eddielee11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythingape Posted September 15, 2006 Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 I got a 7750 PAM 250 from sash5 with very good AR.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted September 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 (edited) it all depends which one u like personally. u r the one who will be wearing the piece. u got to learn to live the flaws. Do appreciate the reps. They have come a long way. The one in your picture looks better, not because of the photography. It looks like it was hand-picked out of a bunch because it had the best imprinting, cleanest numbers--mine is not like that. Here is my challenge/offer: I have been a PROFESSIONAL print designer for years now, in which I have a 4 year degree. I have had a lot of projects over the years where I was given an old logo or design that was unusable because it was not in vector format (a photo, low res web), and therefore would not resize well. I would go in and meticulously pick fonts out of my thousands that matched the original. If it was a special font made only for that piece, I would go into Illustrator (Adobe), zoom WAY in carefully trace the old artwork, until it was a perfect match. I'd PMS match the colors, separate into everything into layers, and that was it--a perfect reproduction ready to be fed into a press, engraver, whatever--they all use the same format basically. I'm positive that whoever puts together these dials works in a very similar way, just sloppier with less awareness of details. "Close enough" attitude. Unproffessional. This is why I am maybe overly critical of these reps. It's not that hard to match it perfectly. Esp. with some ETA reps going for $700 or whatever. Unless I'm missing something, like they HAVE to make it look a little bad otherwise they can get in trouble--that's the only thing I can think of. My offer and challenge is: I will offer my expertise to anyone willing to make a perfect rep. I would LOVE to redo the 250. If you have connections to manufacturing, send me detailed photos of an original and I will supply the files needed to print a proper rep. dial, etc. Print, engraving, they all have to start out with a vector layout to scale made on a computer. I'm sure I'm going to get barraged with "Well, there's more to it than that", but you know what, look into it, I doubt there is. This is my offer and contribution to the RWG, PM me if you are serious. Also, I'm not "The Man". Andrew, Josh--are you listening? Edited September 15, 2006 by MJP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted September 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 Like u are going out with a hot babe with fake 40dd implant. ..you know the pair is fake,,,but i am sure there are flaws.... "The only thing worse than fake [censored] are the kind of guys that like them" --Me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 That second version in Eddie's pictures is fabulous. If only it came with a 7753 movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovepanerai Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 That second version in Eddie's pictures is fabulous. If only it came with a 7753 movement. I couldn't agree more - the 7753 version still uses the wrong case/bezel - it's brushed but worng nonetheless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 So close yet so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavor flav Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 That second version in Eddie's pictures is fabulous. If only it came with a 7753 movement. it does come with a 7753.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovepanerai Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 it does come with a 7753.. yes it does but in a different case and from what I have seen different caseback Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted September 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) That second version in Eddie's pictures is fabulous. That was a handpicked one, for sure, and nicely photographed. If we use the girl analogy as eddie did, it's like your chicks modeling photos compared with how she looks in the daylight after a hangover in real life. ZOOM into my photo (it's very hi res) at the top for a more accurate look at what you will probably get if you order one--there's only one manufacturer. Again, look at both 12's (top one's 2 is squatty and stretched wide and doesn't line up at baseline or top--the bottom one is consensed together way too much--better seen in person), the small 9 bleeding, the 3 o'clock sub numbers look way too small in person and of course the awful skinny date numbers(they had it A LOT better in the first one). This is not one of the better reps, IMO. It bugs me because these flaws could be perfected with very little effort. Whoever worked on the is rep lacks a good critical eye and/or just didn't spend enough time on it. Sorry for repeating myself--I wouldn't be writing this much about it, but this is my favorite model. So close yet so far, indeed. I have 3 other reps, not a lot, but they are all perfect, so I know it's not just me. Edited September 16, 2006 by MJP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babola Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) I left the photo big so you can do your own zooming. I just got the new one yesterday (right). Any close up requests, LMK. There are improvements, but all in all, I don't like it--it's on the shoddy side. I'll let you pick out the problems. One particular problem to this unit is a splotchy 9 at the 6 o'clock. Slightly better movement though. MJP, totally agree, BTW the new PAM250 has been on my radar for some few months now, however until the majority of our dealers start offering the 'updated' version with the new A7750 and A/R coated sapphire, I'll sit still and patiently roll my thumbs...:-) Having only one or two of them having "the best" version is not enough, IMO, especially if you're after a good deal. The 'old' PAM250 as shown on your left photo isn't really PAM250 rep, the major issue being - it comes in PAM196 case, 250 case is all brushed... The 'new' PAM250 on the right still has few cosmetic problems, most notably that fugly 6 o'clock subdial (ugghhh), 5, 10, 15 etc numbers on the dial are too rough, number 12 at the top of the dial is slightly wrong, the case should be brushed with a grit one size smaller to be closer to the gen which comes with brushed finished much closer to the bead-blasted look, than brushed S/S.... etc. How's the chrono been performing so far ? cheers, babola Edited September 16, 2006 by babola Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted September 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 MJP, totally agree, BTW the new PAM250 has been on my radar for some few months now, however until the majority of our dealers start offering the 'updated' version with the new A7750 and A/R coated sapphire, I'll sit still and patiently roll my thumbs...:-) Having only one or two of them having "the best" version is not enough, IMO, especially if you're after a good deal. The 'old' PAM250 as shown on your left photo isn't really PAM250 rep, the major issue being - it comes in PAM196 case, 250 case is all brushed... The 'new' PAM250 on the right does still have some cosmetic problem, most notably that fugly 6 o'clock subdial (ugghhh), 5, 10, 15 etc numbers on the dial are to rough, number 12 at the top of the dial is slightly wrong, the case should be brushed with a grit size smaller to be closer to the gen which comes with brushed finished much closer to the bead-blasted look, than brushed S/S.... etc. How's the chrono been performing so far ? cheers, babola PAM196, that's what I thought I had until now when TT Andrew in emails calls the one on the left an "old" 250(A1) and the one on the right the "newer" 250. He told me the new (brushed, on right) 250 has Asia 7750 (28,800bph) , older has Asia 7750 (21,600bph), if thats what you mean by updated. It had (I say had cause I sent it back) a different cast to the glass also. The movement looked a little smoother on the newer 250 (on the sub second hand) maybe my imagination That hand, the actual football-shaped needle, had a kinda rough edge around it. I didn't test accuracy on either of them. Another problem not in the picture I posted (I have it in other photos I took) is the buttons top and bottom of the crown guard aren't shaped smoothly. They look like they were rounded off on a bench grinder and smoothed out with the wire wheel, like cheap taiwanese-made tools. A little smoother than that implies but you get the drift--obviously hand-shaped on a production schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikellem Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 MJP, The quality control will never be like what you are asking. You must remember, These rep dials are not made under the tight contols that you are asking! That's why Eddie's responce is...These are reps, enjoy them for what they are. We would all llike 100% perfection on our replica watches, unfortuanately we will never see them perfect. If you want the QC to be 100%, then people whom are that picky should buy a gen. I fell that a replica at 10% of the retail price is a wonderful deal, and even though I honestly do not like the flaws either, after awhile you learn they come with the territory...Replica Watches.. Just another perspective, and I do understand and respect your frustration. MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babola Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) 'Sasch5' dealer could be on the money...the PAM250 rep he sells is the best one I've seen so far, at least cosmetically. I believe it also comes with an updated A7750 mov't. Check the fine details on the dial - 5, 10, 15 etc numbers are almost exactly as on the gen, comes with A/R sapphire, 6 o'clock subdial is close to "perfect"...se below: http://www.replicacollector.com/members/in...showtopic=25624 Maybe we have a 'PAM250 version 3' here ? cheers, babola Edited September 16, 2006 by babola Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 I think that is version 2 from the second factory before they corrected the bezel spelling. Only two factories make this model. This was true on the 196/188 and the new inferior version did not come out until the first factory stopped production. In fact, I am convinced there are basically two factories which make the majority, if not all. higher end PAM rep models and one factory is better than the other. But as long as we are at it if anyone including dealers are aware of version 2 in a 7753 please let us know. The original version 7753 188/196 are some of my favorite PAM reps. The movements are fabulous and, in spite of inevitable small flaws, aesthetically and mechanically are fabulous timepieces. MJP- Of course we all share your frustration. There are no perfect reps other than gens. That is why they cost 10-15% of gen price. Take that as a given. For a number of folks here part of the fun of this hobby is trying to make the reps as good as they can be. By the way there are professional designers working on various projects using Vector graphics and other professional applications as we speak. Be it datewheels, dials, crowns, etc. Even with the best of general knowledge relating to design, printing, fabrication what is missing is the experienced manpower and dedicated equipment. Crowns, dials, datewhweels are made on dedicated machines. A number of folks can tell you of very funny experiences trying to get someone who doesn't make watch parts for a living to make something exactly correct - the exact bevel on a crown or the layout of a datewheel. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted September 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 I was told by TT Andrew there is only one manufacturer of the PAM250 brushed. Is that wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 There are only two factories making this and unless something has changed you are right. The first factory has the polished bezel and crown guard. Unfortunately they are also the only ones with a 7753 version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted September 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) 'Sasch5' dealer could be on the money...the PAM250 rep he sells is the best one I've seen so far, at least cosmetically. I believe it also comes with an updated A7750 mov't. Check the fine details on the dial - 5, 10, 15 etc numbers are almost exactly as on the gen, comes with A/R sapphire, 6 o'clock subdial is close to "perfect"...se below: http://www.replicacollector.com/members/in...showtopic=25624 Maybe we have a 'PAM250 version 3' here ? cheers, babola That one looks WAY better. To the point of being a different maker, yes. Thanks for the heads up--I'm going to follow up. The fact that TachYmetre is still spelled euro tells me that they took the older one and put a brushed finish--That's what I want. I hear what you guys are saying. Mostly I want to blow my cash on the new Bell & Ross' with subdials. Lets crank those out people! Chop chop! Edited September 16, 2006 by MJP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythingape Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 'Sasch5' dealer could be on the money...the PAM250 rep he sells is the best one I've seen so far, at least cosmetically. I believe it also comes with an updated A7750 mov't. Check the fine details on the dial - 5, 10, 15 etc numbers are almost exactly as on the gen, comes with A/R sapphire, 6 o'clock subdial is close to "perfect"...se below: http://www.replicacollector.com/members/in...showtopic=25624 Maybe we have a 'PAM250 version 3' here ? cheers, babola I should have taken a better photo to show off the great AR on that watch, I'll get back to that when I get the chance, it really is the best AR of all the watches I have. I should say I have had some chrono issues with this watch, probably just a minor repair, but nothing I would chance fixing myself. Dealers now recommend the 250 over the 196, because it is more accurate.. And btw, I am pretty sure a few of our dealers are using the same factory for this one.. So it comes down to who gives you the best service and the best deal. -APE- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 I have EL's 250, too. Its gorgeous, I dont know what you are talkin about, you probably got a really bad one, cause mine is exactly like the one in eddies pics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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