Genuine 16220 case vs replica 16200 case...

[Jimmythree]

In 2008 (iirc) I stuck a '1016' together using this 16220 case and a 1570 movement with genuine dial.  I took it apart soon after but still have the case.  Also have a few unsigned replica '16200' type cases so I compared the two.

Q...Why?

A...So if anyone is going to put a '1016' together this shows two options.

 

Cases side by side:

The replica 'DJ' and modern replica explorer cases are the same depending on if made for 2824 or 2836 akaik.  The lugs on this replica have no holes and the early 16200 case had holes and has been drilled out to 1.25/1.30mm.

This replica case is made for ETA 2836 but many are made for ETA 2824, JMB '1016' for example.  All genuine 16200 had cal 3135, a 3035 will not fit.  

This 16220 mid case is 35.3mm wide and the replica case is 35.5mm wide.

The 16220 mid case is 5.0mm thick and the replica case is 6.05mm thick.  My JMB mid case is approximately 5.0mm +/-, it is hard to measure with it all put together.  The 2836 cases are about 1mm thicker than 2824 cases.  You can see the difference in them below the rounded side of the mid case and a small non rounded area where the case back meets the case.

The 16220 bezel is 34.7mm OD...it is an ST bezel cut to fit a GS 22 crystal.  The replica bezel is 35.3mm OD...it came on the case.  The case neck on the replica is OEM spec and the bezel will have to be machined to fit a 25-22 OEM spec 1016 crystal.

The 16220 case with GS 22 crystal is 13.25mm thick.  The replica case with sapphire crystal is 12.65mm thick and a GS 22 will add about .5mm +/-.  My JMB case with a GS 22 is 13.0mm thick.

 

Rule of thumb:

A genuine 16220 case will work with a 2824 and a genuine 16000 type case will work with a 2836...no guarantees.

Lug space on this genuine 16220= 20.04mm, this replica case = 20.05mm.

Genuine 16220 dial seat OD = 28.0mm.  Dial seat ID = 27.5mm.  Genuine 16220 will work with 1016 genuine spec dial.

Replica case dial seat OD = 29.6mm, ID = 27.5mm so a case with a 29.5/29.6mm dial seat should accept an oem spec 27.9mm dial for a 1016 project but you will need the dial and movement mounted securely.

 

From an earlier post:

Case necks on 16xx, 16xxx, 162xx DJ and 1016 are 29.5mm OD.

Bezels for 16xx, 16xxx, 162xx are 30.4mm ID.

Bezels for 1016 are 31.0 ID.

Dials for 1016 are 27.9mm OD, same as 36mm QS DJ.

 

Genuine 15220 case with case tube:

 

Replica case without case tube.  You can see the extra thickness below the rounded mid case where it contacts the case back.

 

My JMB '1016'

 

Typos are free.

J3/Amc

[Jimmythree]

Picture 3 heading should read:

Genuine 16220 case with case tube:

 

Can not edit posts.  Maybe I can find my 'automatico' PW and change back.  Found a couple ETA 955.xxx movements lost since 2002 but can't find my PW.   

Have an empty 160xx case for cal 3035 somewhere and if it shows up, I'll measure it and post the results.

J3/amc 

[horologist]

R,

I like your 1016 construction much better with the genuine 166220 case!!  That would be my choice on a practical reason 

why?

 

Although the original 1016 is a great design which was water resistant to 100 metres compared to the datejusts of this era being WR to 50 metres , the 166220 is also WR to 100 meters     PLUS   it is from a better grade of stainless steel than the original 1016!  The 1016 is from 304L SS whereas the 166220 is from 904L SS!  904L  is nothing special but much more corrosion resistant than 394L, but will still corrode under the right conditions!
 

I had a 1016 many moons ago and sold it as it was rotted with corrosion under the rear seal and under the bezel!  Case corrosion is a number  one  turnoff for me!   Buyer was ok with it as all he wanted, was to show off with a Rolex on his arm in front of his wife’s sisters husband and other work colleagues!
 

Yes, someone with an observant eye will know that the explorer case is different from the date just case!  But who are they?, - those like us or those that have owned many genuine pieces being well aware of the finer details that are fully conscious of all the fine nit picking!  I can bet that most people including those who may also own one or maybe two would not know their aR$3 from their mouth!  I have met them and believe me when I wore both a rep and a genuine submariner for example,they questioned the genuine more than the replica!  What does that say!

 

Hooefully the mods will help you get into your Automatico login!  I am sure we all know you are Automatico!

[Jimmythree]

Since a replica is a replica no matter what, maybe a builder might look for a good genuine 162xx case for $300/$400 rather than go with a $600/$800 higher grade replica case.  No one will ever convince me a $700+ replica case is much better than the average $50 to $100 replica case although the higher $$ cases have been detailed and have good numbers and letters.

You could leave the lug holes as is and just use genuine spec spring bars to preserve the value of the case.  A later 162xx case with blind lug holes would need to be drilled all the way through.  My 16220 case is an L serial number from around 1989.

 

Here is a thread from 14 years back about using a rlx 16234 case for a '1016' project.  After finishing this project 'Stilty' sold me his leftover '1016' dials when he left the replica hobby and one of them is in my '1016' pictured above.  He also sold me the leftover '1016' bezels he had cnc machined in a custom fabricating shop in Canada...the 316L stainless bezels are identical to genuine 1016 bezels.  All of his projects were first class, he was the 'Rolojack' of the forum back then and I still have a 15200 OPD that he put together with genuine case, dial, hands, calendar ring, crown etc with a nos 12892 ETA in it.  I'll dig it out sooner or later and post some pictures of it.

The hands were modified to fit and a genuine rlx 3135 date wheel was used because they turn the same direction as an ETA 28xx.  The only way anyone could tell it is not 100% genuine without opening it up is the time sets ahead by turning the crown counterclockwise where a 3135 turns clockwise.

 

A few pics of my very first vintage Franken project - The Rolex Area - RWG

 

bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Eterna 12892 (ETA 2892) (ranfft.de)

 

"Hopefully the mods will help you get into your Automatico login!  I am sure we all know you are Automatico!"

 

I am still looking for my amc PW.  I have a metal candy box with all my PW in it from the past 25+ years and can't find it...it also has my AOL dial-up PW in it! 

Anyone remember when TimeZone com came to the USA from Singapore?  That's when internet 'watch talk' really took off.  

 

Maybe the PW fell into my 'A21' parts junk...

 

         "You have mail!"

 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Jimmythree

[Jimmythree]

That was one row.

Here's another row...

I'll admit some of it is genuine.

 

[Timelord]

12 hours ago, Jimmythree said:

 maybe a builder might look for a good genuine 162xx case for $300/$400

 

 

Let me know who has "a good" one at those prices???  😲  I think at today's prices, we might need to add in an extra "0" in the units column digit!!  

[Jimmythree]

"Let me know who has "a good" one at those prices???"

 

My 162xx cases came from watches that had been stripped for their movements.  They were relatively 'cheap' when I bought mine (around $150USD) and now the cases are a LOT more on eBay, Chrono 24 etc because of the insane escalation in rolex prices.  Besides that, many of these cases are 25 or 30 years old now and rotted out by corrosion.  All but one of mine are in 90% condition.  Also have one machined to accept a rolex 3035 or ETA 2836.

So...imho $300 to $400 USD is a reasonable price today for a 162xx case in good condition that probably needs detailing.

 

Back when I first bought the cases they were easy to find because 'pickers' were buying 162xx DJ and 152xx OPD at watch shows by the dozens just to get the movements.  They sometimes stripped them down on the spot and sold the cases/bracelets/dials and put the movements in clear plastic movement cups to take with them.  That is where I got most of mine. The movements ended up in fully signed, near perfect 18K DJ cases/bracelets/dials and were resold.  Some of the movements were converted to Day-Date and sold as Prez models and a few were converted to 18K submariners.  One guy I knew back then already had 50 or more watches in a box that he had bought when I talked to him.  This was in Orlando FL in the 1990s.

 

A watch/diamond trader friend got two of the converted 18KYG Prez watches with cal 3135 from 'a guy' in Miami FL without the seller or him knowing they were conversions.  He finally got his $$ back.  I saw a Prez conversion kit from date to day-date on eBay a while back and there is a 15xx to GMT conversion on there now.  The GMT kit is incomplete (no cal ring spacer etc.) but it will make the conversion.  It is better than what I used to put my 'shortcut 1655' together but the cost is about $1000 more.

 

GMT | 24 Hour | Conversion Kit | Fits Rolex Movement 1560 | 1570 With Date | eBay

 

3135 Rolex day date kit. Used parts rolex. | eBay

 

Another guy I knew was from another country and he sold signed fake 14K and 18K cases/bracelets/bezels etc for years at shows and by telephone 'on memo'.  On memo = if he knew you, he sent the parts and you paid for them in 30 days or less.  He also sold tutone conversions to change a steel DJ/OPD over to steel/14K or 18K...dial, crown, bezel, and bracelet.  Tutone was hot back then.

 

Funny story about him...he had a retail store (in NYC iirc) and the Feds raided it and took every rolex watch and rolex part they could find, tore the place up, and charged him with a half dozen felonies.  When he went before a judge to plead his case, the guy had a Hot Dog lawyer plus a 'rolex expert'.  The Hot Dog talked the judge into allowing the expert to examine the watches etc. that the Feds had confiscated.

It was all 100% genuine!  The dumb azzed Feds had scooped up all genuine watches and parts while throwing boxes, furniture, tools, show cases etc. everywhere.  The fake stuff was somewhere else.

The guy sued everyone involved, I do not know how he came out on damages etc. but he got his stuff back.  Most of it anyway.

 

The Feds got the last laugh though.  They banned him from entering the USA because of being charged with the felonies, even though the charges were dropped, and when he arrived back in the USA from an overseas trip, they took his passport and shipped him right back out.  Have not heard of him being back in 15 or 20 years. 

 

I put the last 14K OPD bezel from him on a drowned tutone case/bracelet I sold as parts/junk about five years ago (with full disclosure about the bezel swap).  It had been stored for a long time full of water (cal 3035) before I got it and the SS/18K oyster bracelet looked like a bicycle chain.  The 18K bezel was just about the only good part on it.   Paid $400 for it, sold it for $400, got a better bezel.  One of my Bigger Deals.

 

A famous watch buyer/seller/trader once told me:

"If you want to retire with $1 million worth of watches...start out with 3 or 4 million dollars."  

 

J3/amc

[Timelord]

21 hours ago, Jimmythree said:

.Some of the movements were converted to Day-Date and sold as Prez models 

 

Where they sold as full presidential watches in fake 18k gold cases or sold as original day date movements coming from presidential watches?

 

[Jimmythree]

"Where they sold as full presidential watches in fake 18k gold cases or sold as original day date movements coming from presidential watches?"

 

Afaik they were sold as complete watches.  The two my friend had were hard to tell from genuine except for the aftmkt diamond dials.  They also had diamond bezels, very well made with genuine diamonds. 

Looking back, I think one was 3035 base and the other 3135, can't be 100% sure.

 

I had an 18K replica 'zenith' Daytona on an oyster bracelet in August 1998 with an ETA 7753 and it was also very good.  It had two flaws...too thick and the black dial was not as good as the case and bracelet. 

I soon traded it away but it would be worth a lot today just for the gold. 

There were a lot of replica solid gold watches floating around back then and a trading site about 100 miles away had two or three traders always selling gold replicas so no one kept one for long.  They also had tutone models with 14K or 18K fluted bezels and tutone jubilees with 14K or 18K center links.  They went for about $650 for SS/14K and $750 for SS/$18K, all with new ETA 2836 with (used) genuine crowns.  Last one I had was probably 12 or 15 years ago.  Gold went way up and the 18K watches went away, scrapped probably.  

 

Gold was about $285 per Troy oz back then (August 1998) and $1820 today.  Price of 18K gold per gram then vs now = $6.87 vs $43.90 so if an 18K case and oyster bracelet weighed 100 grams back then, it was about $690 then vs $4400 today.  Still have one of the 18K cases and it weighs 29 or 30 grams (with bezel, no crystal or crown)...29g = $1273 today.