Watchmeister Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 I am with Archibald on this one. As I sit here writing this I am staring at a genuine Breguet sitting on my wife's wrist and reflecting on the number of times it has been in for service at a minimum of $800-$1,000 per pop. I will stick with reps. Nothing wrong with gens though. Just not for me. And here is the oxymoron - the more I spend on a gen the higher the liklihood that it will need frequent attention. The Breguet is more problematic than the AP that ultimately died which is more problematic than the Red Sub which I got in high school and ultimately lost. Yeah, I am that old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 I am with Archibald on this one. As I sit here writing this I am staring at a genuine Breguet sitting on my wife's wrist and reflecting on the number of times it has been in for service at a minimum of $800-$1,000 per pop. I will stick with reps. Nothing wrong with gens though. Just not for me. And here is the oxymoron - the more I spend on a gen the higher the liklihood that it will need frequent attention. The Breguet is more problematic than the AP that ultimately died which is more problematic than the Red Sub which I got in high school and ultimately lost. Yeah, I am that old. Well, I'm certainly not normal when it comes to how I treat my watches. I don't own a banger and when I see people working on their car engines with their good watches on, I cringe. My watches are treated like jewelry so service is usually benign. Is this 1K Breuget service factory authorized or is it your favorite watchsmith having to replace parts? How often? I don't know too many Breuget owners, (2) but this has not been their experience. Anyway, ...as I said...very little of this makes practical sense. I just bought a c.1909 Hamilton Railroad Pocket Watch with the iconic 992 movement in 10K filled gold, 20 micron 18k gold plate in running condition for $295. Guess where it is now???? At Precision Watch Repair in Philadelphia getting a complete tear down, cleaning, oiling and regulating to return it to chronometer-like specs for.......$325!!!!! Am I happy that I'm going to own a nearly 100 year old running serviced chronometer dispite it costing $600+?? You bet! I cant wait to hack that sucker and watch it keep perfect time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Well, I'm certainly not normal when it comes to how I treat my watches. I don't own a banger and when I see people working on their car engines with their good watches on, I cringe. My watches are treated like jewelry so service is usually benign. Is this 1K Breuget service factory authorized or is it your favorite watchsmith having to replace parts? How often? I don't know too many Breuget owners, (2) but this has not been their experience. Knowing Warren like I do, this must have been the cost of service at the Breguet AD in NY. If it was going to his favorite watchsmith, that would have been Ziggy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 At Precision Watch Repair in Philadelphia getting a complete tear down, cleaning, oiling and regulating to return it to chronometer-like specs for.......$325!!!!! What the hell am I thinking when I charge $80 for a manual movement service...no matter the type or age... $325 to service a handwind? Holly crap... And to think, some folks think my prices are too high as it is, when I charge the same fee of $325 to service a Valjoux 72, a much more complex and many many hours consuming job... I think that maybe some adjusting is needed if this is the going rate for a handwind watch at a commercial shop. I have restored many vintage pocket watches, complete restoration, for less than $150, and I think my workmanship is easily comparible to any shop out there. I need to re-think this repair stuff if this is what my competition is doing. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Knowing Warren like I do, this must have been the cost of service at the Breguet AD in NY. If it was going to his favorite watchsmith, that would have been Ziggy. Your right, never had this one in the shop. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 You cant get that reliability and accuracy in a replica movement no matter how obsessively you attempt to adjust it. The goods just aren't there. That may??? apply to some of the lower end cheap $2 chinese models. But it does not apply to the majority of the watches we have access to. Any ETA powered rep, will easily keep accurate time, no question about it. Omega is using ETA movements, and I would put a 2892A2 up against any automatic movement out there today, it's the best there is in my view, dollar for dollar... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Any ETA powered rep, will easily keep accurate time, no question about it. Omega is using ETA movements, and I would put a 2892A2 up against any automatic movement out there today, it's the best there is in my view, dollar for dollar... Is a stock 2892A2 as good as an IWC-fettled 2892A2? Or is that where your dollar for dollar caveat comes in? What about Co-Axials? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Is a stock 2892A2 as good as an IWC-fettled 2892A2? Or is that where your dollar for dollar caveat comes in? What about Co-Axials? I don't have any ETA specs sheets on the 2892 series, they are not available. The 2892A2 is a much better series movement than the 2836-2, and the 2836-2 movements that we have in our watches, are middle of the road quality, with an accuracy of 7 +-7 seconds per day... The 2892A2 should easily exceed this accuracy right out of the box, without any re-working... My dollar for dollar is a stock ETA 2892A2 vs a Rolex whatever caliber is made today...the ETA easily outshines it, ETA is thinner, has a better winding rotor, and if cost is a factor, is less than $200, I bought a brand new factory ETA 2892A2 for $100... I would put it up against any auto movement for one basic comparison, how well does it run, cost, and timekeeping...it can hold it's own in my view. Co-Axials are a totally different animal, don't know much about them, except the design is supposed to reduce the sliding friction that is inherant in a standard escapment and pallet arm. For the price, it's great value. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 That may??? apply to some of the lower end cheap $2 chinese models. But it does not apply to the majority of the watches we have access to. Any ETA powered rep, will easily keep accurate time, no question about it. Omega is using ETA movements, and I would put a 2892A2 up against any automatic movement out there today, it's the best there is in my view, dollar for dollar... RG I was talking specifically about the George Daniel's Co-Axial movement in the Omega watch line, and about +- 5 sec/day performance. This is what I expect to get when I pay more. I have had a genuine SMP Chronograph Chronometer for a year and just had it re-adjusted and the results are, on both a winder and on my wrist, +- 1 sec/day. It's not unusual for me to check the watch at week's end and find it dead on. I have never found it outside of 3 seconds off per week since the tune up. I challenge any ETA replica to come up to that level of accuracy. The Co-Axials are just as dead on if not more so. I meticulously adjusted the ETA 2836 in my Submariner and it performs reasonably well...but not at that level consistantly. A watchwinder actually plays more havoc with it's ability to keep chronometer grade time than when it's on my wrist. For most people, this is a level of accuracy that isn't worth it. That's a completely valid point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Co-Axials are a totally different animal, don't know much about them, except the design is supposed to reduce the sliding friction that is inherant in a standard escapment and pallet arm. For the price, it's great value. RG They rival quartz in accuracy. The entire Omega line is switching over to the Co-Axial escapement in the next several years. It will be another revolutionary step. The standard pallet arm will be a thing of the past in 10 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 I was talking specifically about the George Daniel's Co-Axial movement in the Omega watch line, and about +- 5 sec/day performance. This is what I expect to get when I pay more. I have had a genuine SMP Chronograph Chronometer for a year and just had it re-adjusted and the results are, on both a winder and on my wrist, +- 1 sec/day. It's not unusual for me to check the watch at week's end and find it dead on. This is entertaining. My brother's Co-Axial Planet Ocean was a little fast or slow when he got it (i forget which) but after a few weeks he set it to 2 seconds fast. After a few months, it was still 2 seconds fast. He's since set it to time.gov and it's more accurate than or as accurate as his girl's gen Omega quartz. Admittedly, he wears it all the time (apart from in the shower) and acts like a human tourbillon cage, which I expect helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 What the hell am I thinking when I charge $80 for a manual movement service...no matter the type or age... $325 to service a handwind? Holly crap... And to think, some folks think my prices are too high as it is, when I charge the same fee of $325 to service a Valjoux 72, a much more complex and many many hours consuming job... I think that maybe some adjusting is needed if this is the going rate for a handwind watch at a commercial shop. I have restored many vintage pocket watches, complete restoration, for less than $150, and I think my workmanship is easily comparible to any shop out there. I need to re-think this repair stuff if this is what my competition is doing. RG Oh please, don't raise them on my account!!!!! These guys at Precision are a downtown Philadelphia establishment. The fact is, there are NO high end watch repair people in this area. These guys are fantastic artisans...no debate there...but they know that for high end restoration and repair, they are literally the only game in town. The other means of watch restoration and repair in Pennsylvania is the state prison system. Most jewelers who take your watches with a professional promise of high quality work and care, and take your hundreds of dollars, ship them off the the state prisons in central Pennsylvania where watchmaking and restoration programs are part of the available curricula. The watches get serviced at prison rates. I'm not impuning the quality, being a little skeptical of the system. Precision tore down my Dad's GP High Frequency Gyromatic 3 years ago, did a case and dial restoration, cleaning and adjustment and even manufactured a few parts they couldnt obtain for $350. The watch is a functional chronometer today at +-3 sec/day. They do remarkable work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 @ crystalcranium Go it, I was not sure what model you were comparing it to. I did not know that the co-axial's were that accurate, amazing, but then again, John Harrison's No. 4 Chronometer was accurate to within 5 seconds after a trip from England to Jamaica, on a boat, in the year 1762...so how far have we really progressed in mechanical timekeeping... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Oh please, don't raise them on my account!!!!! These guys at Precision are a downtown Philadelphia establishment. The fact is, there are NO high end watch repair people in this area. These guys are fantastic artisans...no debate there...but they know that for high end restoration and repair, they are literally the only game in town. The other means of watch restoration and repair in Pennsylvania is the state prison system. Most jewelers who take your watches with a professional promise of high quality work and care, and take your hundreds of dollars, ship them off the the state prisons in central Pennsylvania where watchmaking and restoration programs are part of the available curricula. The watches get serviced at prison rates. I'm not impuning the quality, being a little skeptical of the system. Precision tore down my Dad's GP High Frequency Gyromatic 3 years ago, did a case and dial restoration, cleaning and adjustment and even manufactured a few parts they couldnt obtain for $350. The watch is a functional chronometer today at +-3 sec/day. They do remarkable work. Just kidding...I am happy with the prices I have, and the workmanship I provide. I still find it amazing that some (very few fortunatly) think that this work should be done for peanuts...and they baulk at paying more than a few dollars for full restoration on a high end vintage model...you get what you pay for... That is a fair price for the skills that is needed and the quality of the workmanship. It's a dying trade, and as time goes on, the prices and demand for skilled watchmakers, is only going to increase... Plse post some pics when it's done, I have a 1905 Waltham in house now for restoration, but next to the circa 1742 model Verge Fusee, it looks outright modern... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 @ crystalcranium Go it, I was not sure what model you were comparing it to. I did not know that the co-axial's were that accurate, amazing, but then again, John Harrison's No. 4 Chronometer was accurate to within 5 seconds after a trip from England to Jamaica, on a boat, in the year 1762...so how far have we really progressed in mechanical timekeeping... RG I guess far enough that you can wear one on the wrist...and that Omega is making hundred's of thousands of them, and someone with a new credit card can afford the $1700 it takes to own one. I do have an obsession with mechanical accuracy. The Co-Axial's blow me away. Quartz...ehhh...big deal...totally different animal. Comparing a quartz watch to a mechanical is like comparing a drag racer to an Olympic sprinter. The fact that the drag racer does a much better job of getting from point A to point B, it doesn't detract at all from my ability to marvel at the physical perfection and technique of a highly trained and tuned athlete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Tracy Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 @ crystalcranium Go it, I was not sure what model you were comparing it to. I did not know that the co-axial's were that accurate, amazing, but then again, John Harrison's No. 4 Chronometer was accurate to within 5 seconds after a trip from England to Jamaica, on a boat, in the year 1762...so how far have we really progressed in mechanical timekeeping... RG That's what I love about this place,... you learn something important, ~every day ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Just kidding...I am happy with the prices I have, and the workmanship I provide. I still find it amazing that some (very few fortunatly) think that this work should be done for peanuts...and they baulk at paying more than a few dollars for full restoration on a high end vintage model...you get what you pay for... That is a fair price for the skills that is needed and the quality of the workmanship. It's a dying trade, and as time goes on, the prices and demand for skilled watchmakers, is only going to increase... Plse post some pics when it's done, I have a 1905 Waltham in house now for restoration, but next to the circa 1742 model Verge Fusee, it looks outright modern... RG OOOhhhhhh. Some of the Waltham's I looked at were sweet! Here are some shots of the Hamilton from the original web ad It actually ran OK, about +90 sec/day with thr regulator at full retard. Like I said....accuracy crazed. The watch was absolutely mint. Inscribed service dates inside the caseback were 1934, 1962, 1984. So Cool! The 992 is one of my holy grail movements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baltic Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 I think this is the natural rep collector progression... Stage 4: You regain an interest in reps, far lower than stage 1, but also continue to consider gen pieces, sometimes even buying a rep before a gen to see how you like it. <-- You (and I) are here. I agree totally, I've rationalised my collection to some pieces that are modded and serviced to v high standards and it'll take something REALLY special to make me get a new piece. I have my grail gen watch too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 OOOhhhhhh. Some of the Waltham's I looked at were sweet! Here are some shots of the Hamilton from the original web ad It actually ran OK, about +90 sec/day with thr regulator at full retard. Like I said....accuracy crazed. The watch was absolutely mint. Inscribed service dates inside the caseback were 1934, 1962, 1984. So Cool! The 992 is one of my holy grail movements. Stunning... I love it... Here are some I restored... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Wow Rob. That decorated Illinois RR is simple beautiful. Maybe I wsted a trip into the city. We may need to talk! What kind of running accuracy do you get on these after a complete overhaul? I assume they are 18,000 BPH movements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Wow Rob. That decorated Illinois RR is simple beautiful. Maybe I wsted a trip into the city. We may need to talk! What kind of running accuracy do you get on these after a complete overhaul? I assume they are 18,000 BPH movements? I think they were 18K models, it's been a while... From what I remember, they were quite accurate after service, as accurate as can be expect for a 100 year old watch, that probably did not get serviced as often as it should have been... The Illinois was seized solid when I got it, mainspring and arbour a chunk of rust...managed to restore it and get it going again. You know where to find me. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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