Fighting words

[robc_uk]

Contrary to what you may think, the majority of law abiding gun owners don’t own them for self defense. They own them for the joy of shooting. Ever heard of “exhibition shooting”? If not, get on the internet and find some videos (search for Herb Parsons, Tom Knapp, or Ed McGivern to get started). There you will find examples of guns being used for things other then killing (and by the way, a gun’s sole purpose is not to kill, its purpose is to fire a bullet).

So no Exhibition Shooter has ever gone 'postal' ??Google 'Dunblane'

As a gun owner, I agree that gun control needs to be made more strict. I think that much more investigation should be done on a person’s background before giving them the green light to purchase. Perhaps even a psych evaluation.

So when I purchased my handgun I was in a stable relationship with a good job and not addicterd to any stimulants, fast forward ten years and.......

I do not agree that a complete ban is the answer.

Suprise, Suprise!

Rob

Edited April 18, 2007 by rcherryuk

[robc_uk]

Common misconception, you can own a gun in the UK.

I think everyone here is talking about handguns as the only Firearms you can legally own in the UK are Shotguns,Rifles (Non Automatic with a restriction on Magazine size) & High Velocity Air Rifles.

There is no Private ownership of Handguns since 1997, even the GB Olympic Small Bore Pistol team must practise in France.

Rob

Edited April 18, 2007 by rcherryuk

[maxmilian]

In USA 48% of the households have guns USA have about 9 murders per 100 000/habitant 6,3 of them with guns.

In Australia 20% of the households have guns Australia have 1,9 murders per 100 000/habitant 0,4 of them with guns.

So 66% of the murders in USA involving a gun the number for Australia is 21%.

Not only do USA have a much higer number of total murders/habitant also the percentage envolving guns is much higher

Here is a chart

I would also like to say that I have seen studies saying that a law against guns will not in the short run change theese numbers probably because it is already so many guns in the social system.

Also the murder rate in USA went down for a couple of years but the guns have at the same time increased, the percentage of gun envolment is however the same.

Also about punishment systems, USA has one of the hardest (if not the hardest) punishment systems in the western world.

But still has the highest numbers for homicide and violence.......

This is statistics and can be interpreted any way you want, but I dont think US citicens like to murder more, than people in Australia for example.

So what is the diffrence social ? access to guns ... ? lack of education ? you tell me.

[robc_uk]

Oh and by the way, I have some advice for non-Americans who think they know best how to run our country. But since this is a family channel, I will decline to share it.

Ahem? Have you looked at the US Foreign Policy, it consists of 'you can do it if we like you, if you don't then 'Look Out' I wonder how long it will be before the US decide that Iran has WMDs and go in to 'assist'. Why can Israel and Pakistan have Nukes but Iran cannot??

Don't even think about telling us to 'Butt Out'

Rob

[eddhead]

Captain (!)

You stated:

"Funny though, Everyone else can have a reasoned discussion but the Americans, It's in your Constitution you yell!, So? you can amend the Constitution when it suits you, so why can't you just act like adults and do it. Last year there were 30,000 gun related homicides in the US and 46 in the UK.

Don't shout, think

Rob

I think you are oversimplifying a very complicated stance of the US citizenry on this issue , and underestimating our capacity for deep thought on the matter. Frankly, I am increasingly finding this kind of generalization of the US by our European friends to be prevelant on this board and that disturbs me.. but that is perhaps a subject for another thread.

It is simply not true that all americans support gun ownership. the issue really is that gun laws in the US are within the juristiction of state and local govts rather than the the federal govt and as a result, are inconisistently legislated and applied from a national perspective. So for instance while gun laws in states like Virginia and Texas are rather lax, New York State and especially NYC have very restrictive gun control laws.. more restrictive perhaps than a number of non-US countries that are considered to be strong gun control advocates. In the city, it is almost impossible to legally own a handgun. The issue in NY, Chicago and Philly is similar to what has previously been described with respect to the availabity of guns in the UK. Gun laws in surrounding states are very accomodating to owners and it is very easy for someone to buy a gun from a neigboring state and illegally resell it to someone else who than files out the registration number and transports it accross state lines. That is why gun crime is so high in Philly and Chicago for instance.

BTW, it is also not true that Americans are willing to frequently amend our constitution "when it suits us.." the last constitutional amendment was enacted some 80 odd years ago with the abolishment or prohibition. This is a serious document in this country a national treasure in fact, and is not trifled with without a great deal of forethought. Your comment would suggest we take such actions frivolously and that is simply not true. I would appreciate a bit more sensitivity to this matter on your part.

And once again, I will make the case that the the argument that the constitution protects the rights to bear arms outside of the context or arming a militia is at best unclear.

[Guest TTK]

@omega 1.....!

One person’s logical argument for something may or may not be logical to another person. I own several hand guns. I am not a hunter, nor do I agree with killing another living organism for sport (and never have).

I own guns because I like to shoot. I like to go to the local gun range with friends and have friendly competitions to see who can get the tightest groups. You (having competed in PP1 and PP2) should understand that. I like to go home after a day at the range, sit around cleaning the guns and bragging about whom out shot whom.

I enjoy the mechanics of the firearm (much like people enjoy the mechanics of watches). I enjoy modding my 1911. There is nothing more satisfying to me then to finish a nice trigger job and hit the range to see how it performs. I enjoy taking something that works, and making it work better. I would not be able to do that if I was shooting rented guns.

Contrary to what you may think, the majority of law abiding gun owners don’t own them for self defense. They own them for the joy of shooting. Ever heard of “exhibition shooting”? If not, get on the internet and find some videos (search for Herb Parsons, Tom Knapp, or Ed McGivern to get started). There you will find examples of guns being used for things other then killing (and by the way, a gun’s sole purpose is not to kill, its purpose is to fire a bullet).

As I stated earlier...from the 80's till '97..I was in exactly the same position as you are today......I was a member of a couple of gun clubs in Scotland....one for handguns....and one rifle club...I had a small collection of guns.....S&W 686 / 629 / Casull / Glock 40 / and my last acquired a Desert Eagle .50 AE........I enjoyed nothing more than a night at the clubs....where I was a range officer ........especially those cold winter nights.....where we would gather and shoot the [censored]....much the same as we do here with watches......summer nights were spent at the outdoor range at Dechmont.....shooting skittles etc etc......I was in awe of my own personal God......Jeff Cooper.......since I started collecting guns and became interested in the sport ( please notice that I use the word sport )......I think I must have bought every issue of G&A.......same as I bought almost every issue of Automobile for the wisdom and perspicacity of David E Davis Jr... and a British stalwartly named Phil Lewellyn.....!

Anyway.....I understand your POV......I loved the sport and was dismayed when the ban went into effect.....that dismay was short lived.......I soon turned to a different POV.....and that was that my 'sacrifice' if you could call it that was a worthwhile one....I was playing my part in helping to prevent another such massacre of innocents....in the 10 years since it took place.....there has been no similar incidents with a legally registered firearm...which can't be said about the US.!

I now practice archery for my enjoyment and get the same 'buzz' from it as I did with firearms.....I get to sit and chew the fat with different individuals who believe quite sincerely that it's a more demanding sport than shooting....!

Anyway I digress....!

When the House and Senate put forward the 2nd Amendment for ratification......it read.

“ A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The propositions put forward regarding the Constitution and the Right to Bear Arms are not applicable in today’s society......the founding fathers could hardly have envisioned a solitary circumstance such as VT or Columbine......nor the hi-jacking of that right by individuals to inflict suffering on the altruistic society they were trying to create.....nor the lack of control by today’s government.....it's primary purpose was to ensure that tyranny would never again be inflicted on the citizens of the new republic.....it wasn't a right conferred upon the people at the time to 'enjoy' sport.....it was for preservation of life and liberty......highly commendable.....!

But times change ......( the only constant in the universe is 'change'.....nothing else is constant )......and the 2nd Amendment needs to be changed in order to embrace the changes in society.....once again the founding fathers put the Bill of Rights forward at a time in history....when the nation was predominantly Christian Protestant or Catholic.......even Jefferson...thinker as he was could hardly have envisioned the changes that were to take place and would be absolutely horrified at the prospect of someone using their Bill of Rights to demand his right to acquire a weapon that would allow him to rob the nation of 30+ flowers ....all innocent and caught up in the posturing and politicking of a government that is failing it's people....media which seizes on these events to bolster ratings......ad infinitum....!

However you see it.....you demand a 'Right' to arm yourself.....with no good reason...other than the circular argument that it's your RIGHT.......it's no more a right than the right demanded by a woman to have a child.....or a right to have a driving license........it's a conferred privilege.....not a right......and for that privilege......you have to abide by the rules of society....!

The simple fact is that I don’t really have to justify to you or anyone else why I possess firearms. It is my RIGHT to do so, just as it is your RIGHT to own as many knives as you want. I don’t see the logical argument for spending over a mil on a Ferrari Enzo either, but it is that persons RIGHT to do so.

You're perfectly correct......you do NOT have to justify it to me......you have to justify it to the Mothers and Fathers and family / friends of all those whose right to life was taken away by a madman who exercised his RIGHT to own firearms……..enshrined in a 200+ year old outdated constitution.......you have to justify to those families ........your part in the crime.....oh yes......you’re a willing and active participant in this catalogue of horrors.........YOUR tacit support for a society that continues to ignore the inescapable fact that it is perfectly ok for firearms to be distributed amongst it's populace ...willy nilly....why....because it's YOUR RIGHT....but the truth is YOU'RE WRONG......!

I don’t claim to need guns.

No argument from me......you don't....!

But, by your argument (and please correct me if I have miss-understood the point you were trying to make), you are saying that if something is not “needed” and can be used as a WMD, then it should be banned?

No....I argued that if it isn't 'needed' why would I or anyone who doesn't need it...acquire it......I have no need for a CAT scanner.....it serves no purpose to me.....same as a gun......I have no 'need' for it.....hence why would I acquire it........why ....?.....because I 'desired' it....I acquired it for the purposes of self gratification.....a morbid fascination for the 'power' it wields .......I can use the old nugget about appreciating the fine workmanship and mechanics of it......where is the appreciation of 'fine' workmanship in a pressed steel 'widowmaker'...... a watch provides similar feelings of self gratification........just that it can hardly be described as a WMD...and it certainly would never be capable of killing 33 people in a morning….....unless of course it's attached to a bomb......but on it's own....nah....!

Let’s go back to the (not needed) Ferrari. If I was to take that and drive it at high speed into a crowd, killing mass amounts of people, is that not a weapon of mass destruction? Should we ban Ferraris?

I would say no.....it was never designed as a WMD...it was designed with an entirely different purpose....that argument is facetious......table lamps......baseball bats.....ladies stockings.....were never designed with any other purpose than what they were designed for......illumination.....sport.....and thrilling men.....the fact that man's opposable thumbs and higher brain functions have allowed free rein to our never ending imagination and versatility in devising ways of killing...doesn't preclude the fact that we also design weapons that are ever more ingenious in their capacity to both kill en masse and at the same time remove us from the horror of our actions......Atomic weapons being the signature example......high capacity Glock 9mm WMD are just a downscaled version of the same WMD.....!

As a gun owner, I agree that gun control needs to be made more strict. I think that much more investigation should be done on a person’s background before giving them the green light to purchase. Perhaps even a psych evaluation. I would even venture to say that I would like to see some types of requirements as to how firearms are stored in the home (for the record, all my firearms an ammunition are locked away in a 1

Edited April 18, 2007 by TTK

[eddhead]

Ahem? Have you looked at the US Foreign Policy, it consists of 'you can do it if we like you, if you don't then 'Look Out' I wonder how long it will be before the US decide that Iran has WMDs and go in to 'assist'. Why can Israel and Pakistan have Nukes but Iran cannot??

Don't even think about telling us to 'Butt Out'

Rob

the fact of the matter is the comments on the US' willingness to " amend the constitution when it suits the" and over the perception we are not capable of public discourse on the issue were very inflammatory and like Chieftang, I take issue with them.

Morevoer, if you really can't figure out why it is so objectionable for Iran of ALL countries to possess a nuclear weapon than you are not paying attention. You are talking about a country headed up by a maniac who denies the holocost ever happened. He is a true sociopath.

I do not know where you live, but I hope you never need to second guess yourself on that one.

p.s. please do not ever put me in the position to defend the bush administrations foreign policy again.. it does not suit me as i am anything BUT a fan of presidend sh!t for brains. but that does not take away from the previous points raised.

[HauteHippie]

So what is the diffrence social ? access to guns ... ? lack of education ? you tell me.

Yes. The USA has far too many violent assholes. Some of it is cultural. Much of it is because of our diversity. What works in terms of laws and policies for smaller, homogenous populations might not be the best choice for a large, diverse population.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...19/uviolent.xml

That's not somwhere I'd want to live. Lots of muggings and home invasions. Criminals act with impunity since the unarmed populace can not fight back. While violent crime is low, theivery is rampant.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=21902

There has been a reported "dramatic increase" in home burglaries and assaults on the elderly. Who would force their elderly parents or grandparents to engage in hand to hand combat with a young aggressor who probably lifted weights in prison, all day, every day, for the past few years?

[rdorman]

Eddhead

You have never seen me use a knife before We are pretty much on the same page.

And all,

Explosives can be (and often are) of the home made variety. Of course some chain, padlocks and a couple gallons of kerosene work pretty darn good as well. Airplanes! Lets ban them all. Heck why not dog food! Koolaid! Getting silly now. But haven't all these things been used for mass murder? (OK, dog food is a stretch Guns where the weopon of choice in cases like this but there are many, many alternatives. This issue lies behind the trigger, not with the trigger.

[HauteHippie]

removed

[robc_uk]

the fact of the matter is the comments on the US' willingness to " amend the constitution when it suits the" and over the perception we are not capable of public discourse on the issue were very inflammatory and like Chieftang, I take issue with them.

I am not seeing much public discourse, only a repitition of the "It's my right, It's in the Constitution stance"

And if you really can't figure out why it is so objectionable for Iran of ALL countries to possess a nuclear weapon than you are not paying attention. You are talking about a country headed up by a maniac who denies the holocost ever happened. He is a true sociopath.

And it's OK for Israel? The one country in the Far East thats almost constantly at war with someone,with US provided weapons of course (I know the UK helped to create Israel,but at least we accept the Palestinians really were there first).

I do not know where you live, but I hope you never need to second guess yourself on that one.

I live and work in Canary Wharf, biggest terrorist target in the UK, it's been targetted twice already by the IRA, do you remember them? Those murderers that were given funding and arms by ignorant ***icans. Or did you think terrorism was only invented when it finally happens on US soil.

I'm quite safe, if it all goes wrong I know y'all are gonna come and save the World,just like you did in WW2

Rob

Edited April 18, 2007 by rcherryuk

[eddhead]

removed

[Blindman]

So give me a good reason for you to OWN a gun.....!

A gun is a tool specifically used for killing. I have killed many predators over the years protecting the livestock. I've found it mute to reason with the fox that eating that chicken will be detrimental to its health, but they never listen. I've killed fox, muskrat, skunks, feral dogs, coyotes and even had a run in with cougar. A fox in the hen house kills as many as it can - it doesn't just run off with one. Coyotes have killed as many 5 sheep in an evening. Feral dogs are very dangerous. I can't see a lamp or knife being of any aid, as I just don't run fast enough to catch them, unless it was in an effort to make the predators laugh them selves to death. I have used traps as well - with the same result and have to listen to the PC people rant over that as well.

I don't know how things work in Scotland but let me explain how it works here. Say a bobcat comes into the area and is killing your livestock. You contact animal control and they will send out a game specialist to track and kill the animal for up to two weeks. They will however charge you $175.00 per day whether they get it or not. Or they will tell you to shoot it yourself and call them to pick up the carcass (rabies testing). I also own and carry a revolver; it's impractical to carry a long gun or shotgun while driving a tractor or carrying a posthole digger.

Before I have to listen to extremist rants about extremist gun owners. I've never found a need for an assault rifle as I haven't had any paratroopers stealing sheep - when they start I'll buy one. I've never used a gun for home defense, my friend (Avatar) takes care of that for me - she's always loaded. If you feel so threatened that you need to carry a gun in your home - it's time to move. Please don't spout about removing natural predators, and it being all our fault anyway, I really don't want to deal with bears and wolves in addition to what's already out there. Its economics - dead livestock equals lost money. Capitalistic? Damn right - don't go there. Any person claiming here they're not, just take that watch off and throw em in the garbage. Any dealers here don't like us capitalist Americans? Quit selling to us here. Reminds me of a prostitute condemning her john for lacking moral fiber.

[robc_uk]

Yes. The USA has far too many violent assholes. Some of it is cultural. Much of it is because of our diversity. What works in terms of laws and policies for smaller, homogenous populations might not be the best choice for a large, diverse population.

Like LA, exactly right, the UK is the most Multi Cultural country in the World and most of the time we all get along fine!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...19/uviolent.xml

That's not somwhere I'd want to live. Lots of muggings and home invasions. Criminals act with impunity since the unarmed populace can not fight back. While violent crime is low, theivery is rampant.

If you are ever in London look me up, I live and work in the Isle of Dogs, one of the crime 'hotspots' in the UK and guess what, It ain't that bad, Don't believe everything you read in the media. The unarmed populace didn't fight back 30,000 times in the US last year,would 30,000 handguns have made it better or worse?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=21902

There has been a reported "dramatic increase" in home burglaries and assaults on the elderly. Who would force their elderly parents or grandparents to engage in hand to hand combat with a young aggressor who probably lifted weights in prison, all day, every day, for the past few years?

Most of the muggers are too weak to pick on anyone else, I can't defend this and won't try to.

Rob

Edited April 18, 2007 by rcherryuk

[rdorman]

Yes. The USA has far too many violent assholes. Some of it is cultural. Much of it is because of our diversity. What works in terms of laws and policies for smaller, homogenous populations might not be the best choice for a large, diverse population.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...19/uviolent.xml

That's not somwhere I'd want to live. Lots of muggings and home invasions. Criminals act with impunity since the unarmed populace can not fight back.

Heck you think that is bad... try Belfast! Almost as bad as our own DC

Much of it in the U.S. is cultural but within cultures. A breakdown of marriage, family and community. No where is that more obvious then in our black populations.

[eddhead]

Eddhead

You have never seen me use a knife before We are pretty much on the same page.

ok, so now you're scaring me to

Explosives can be (and often are) of the home made variety. Of course some chain, padlocks and a couple gallons of kerosene work pretty darn good as well.

Except an exposive device is not as portable as a handgun and that is a big deal. Plus you need an awful lof of chain padlocks and fertilizer to create a bomb that would kill that many people at one time.. Not to say it could not happen, but I beleive there are laws in most states about how much fertizlier for instance you can purchase. And even if they are not, I do not beleive we should be using our inability to control one method of armed crime to justify our lack of instituting controls over another.

This issue lies behind the trigger, not with the trigger.

It lies with both. the trigger itself is at the very least an enabler

[robc_uk]

Heck you think that is bad... try Belfast! Almost as bad as our own DC

And what is the cause of it in Belfast..Religion, the biggest killer of all time.

Rob

Edited April 18, 2007 by rcherryuk

[HauteHippie]

Much of it in the U.S. is cultural but within cultures. A breakdown of marriage, family and community.

One needs to look no further than America's ghettos to see the end result of liberal social engineering.

• Accountability: Gone.
  
• Incentives to work: Gone.
  
• Families: Gone.
  

This is the welfare state at work.

[rdorman]

Completely agree guys! Lets ban religion and welfare

[robc_uk]

One needs to look no further than America's ghettos to see the end result of liberal social engineering.

• Accountability: Gone.
  
• Incentives to work: Gone.
  
• Families: Gone.
  

This is the welfare state at work.

I find myself..in agreement, We have similar issues in the UK

Rob

[Guest TTK]

That's not somwhere I'd want to live. Lots of muggings and home invasions. Criminals act with impunity since the unarmed populace can not fight back. While violent crime is low, theivery is rampant.

Hmmm....lemme see......thievery or mass murder.....difficut choice....I suppoose a lot depends on my insurance company......still diifcult...can I have a 1 second extension.......eh thievery...works for me every time....I can live with it....I can't with mass murder tho'....!

Believe me ...you come at me with a knife.....my baseball bat's gonna save your food bill for a considerable period of time....you come at me with a gun.....and I'm thinking...where the [censored] did he get a gun.....oh I know....the houseowner around the corner has LEGAL guns.....it must be one of h.......urgh...!

And of course in the US...they keep muggings down to fit young black men who can physically withstand the beating.....no granny's ever get mugged....say....did they catch that big black mofo who went 10 rounds with the old biddy before absconding with her purse....?

@Blindman.....I don't advocate a complete ban...there are always exceptions to every rule of law.......abbatoirs......populace in sparse areas.....park wardens......ad infinitum......the situation should be examined in every instance.....if deemed it is necessary then steps to ownership should begin.....with full accountability...and a weapon that is suited for the purpose....handguns are little use against a grizzly bear......shotguns for pest control.!

People who live in conurbations or Metropolis have no need for a handgun......nor any kind of hunting......if you want to hunt.....go fishing......at least all you'll be able to do is have someone's eye out or snag a nice jacket or two.....!

Edited April 18, 2007 by TTK

[rdorman]

... I do not beleive we should be using our inability to control one method of armed crime to justify our lack of instituting controls over another.

Agreed!

[HauteHippie]

UK is the most Multi Cultural country in the World

What is that I see swirling the drain? Looks like your credibility.....

UK = 92.1% white, 2% black

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html

[eddhead]

I'm quite safe, if it all goes wrong I know y'all are gonna come and save the World,just like you did in WW2

Rob

I am not able to highlight the spefics because of the way you used the quotations but if you truly beleive there is a lack of capacity for discourse in the US on this matter you are not familar with how these issues are debated in the US and you are not paying attention to the posts from US citizens in this thread

You cannot seriously be comparing Israel to Iran in terms of their responsiblity to the world community. I understand that not everyone stands behind Israel.. I do not always stand behind them either. But if you are honestly proposing that the world community is as save with Iran possessing nuclear weapon capability as they are with Israel, you are quire frankly out of your mind. I cannot see how you cannot feel threatened by the proliferation of nuclear weapons in Iran.

And no, I do not believe terroism was fist experienced here and yes I do recognize the IRA as a terrorist organization. I am not as US centric as you make me out to be. I travel abroad frequently and have been to Canary Wharf many times. But that is not the point. The point is to mitigate the risk going forward. We cannot change the past, but we can influence the future.

I have really tried to take responsible positions in this thread and temper my comments with the understanding that over the past 8 years US foreign policy has been unilateral and irresponsible, and as a result their constitutes a lack of understanding within the Global community on just where the US poplulace sits on issues like this. But even considering all of that, some of the posts here are insulting and demonstrate a STRONG predjudice and incredible lack of sensitivity toward some of the people on this site who are supposed to be your friends as well as cohabitants of this virtual community. Let's not forget the issue that sprung this debate happend on US soil and is emotional to most US citizens. .. under the cicuimstances the sarcasm is completly out of line.

Some of the posts here demontrate a form of bigotry at least im my mind people feel empowered to engage in because it is easy to pick on people who are not underprivledged. We are not all a bunch of gun toting cowboys shooting it out at the local saloon nor are we a bunch of neanderthals incapable of discussing the issue in an intelligent and reasoned fashion. And it is not the first time I have detected this bias here and it leads me to sometimes wonder why i visit.

EDITED for clarity.

[HauteHippie]

Hmmm....lemme see......thievery or mass murder.....difficut choice....I suppoose a lot depends on my insurance company......still diifcult...can I have a 1 second extension.......eh thievery...works for me every time....I can live with it....I can't with mass murder tho'....!

Ahh, this must mean you have a way to stop mass murders and a way to prove that it would work here in my country. Please, do tell.