Got (Health) Insurance?

[Jumbie]

Much of what just seems "wrong" with the American medical system comes down to a broken legal system. Someone mentioned tons of unnecessary tests? That's so no court could subsequently blame a doctor for "missing something" that a "simple test would have found." You can see where that thinking leads, and it's because doctors are scared silly about being sued.

I say require a forfeitable bond before a suit, in the amount of damages sought. Bingo, overnight the frivolity is gone, and the whole system is fixed. Why won't this happen? The lobbyists are lawyers.

That was me and it is absolutely 100% true. You need to cover your bases because if you do not do a CAT scan for example (even if it's not really indicated by the presentation of the complaint) and miss something that it might have picked up, then it's your ass.

And the whole American legal system is a joke. Look at the judge that is suing some poor dry cleaners for some unbelievable sum (can't remember it right now but it is severl hundred thousands of dollars at least) for losing his pants. That case should have been thrown out and the judge removed from the bench for even trying to sue for such a stupid thing, yet it's been ongoing for a long time now.

Finally, I agree with Pug that a lot of this will be ignored simply because of who made it i.e. Moore.

[ryyannon]

And the whole American legal system is a joke. Look at the judge that is suing some poor dry cleaners for some unbelievable sum (can't remember it right now but it is severl hundred thousands of dollars at least) for losing his pants. That case should have been thrown out and the judge removed from the bench for even trying to sue for such a stupid thing, yet it's been ongoing for a long time now.

I believe it's something like fifty-four million dollars, Jumbie.

I'll try to find the info and post back.

update: http://uk.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughN...226421520070613

For me - and I'm not the only one - the judge in question has mental problems. While this remains to be seen - or at least proved - he's still suing the pants off the Korean couple who misplaced his trousers.

[Pugwash]

I believe it's something like fifty-four million dollars, Jumbie.

It's $65.5 million. It's actually an exercise in tort reform.

[ryyannon]

It's also actually driving the Korean couple in question back to Korea: they can't keep up with the legal fees necessary to defend themselves.

I'm not certain that the objective of tort reform is what's happening here: have you anything to back this up?

In the eyes of his peers, the judge appears to be rather unhinged.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2007/06/06/judge-...for-54-million/

[Jumbie]

Whatever it is, it is insane. I knew it was a ridiculous amount but couldn't remember exactly so erred very much on the side of caution.

@ryyannon: *groan* at your joke. It was so terrible it made me chuckle though.

The last I read on that case, it seems that they are planning on not renewing the judge's seat on the bench. I think he should be removed from it rather than waiting. As well, it seems that this has only come about after the case became well-publicized; of course...

The judge may have mental problems but the legal system has allowed the case to proceed so far. I'm not sure when exactly the suit was filed but I do believe it has been an ongoing case that has cost the plaintiff's a lot of lawyer's fees (in addition to the stress).

IMO, if you sue for something stupid and waste everyone's time and put them through something like this, the fees should be reversed and you should be liable for what you were suing for.

[slay]

I don't understand why your friend cannot get his teeth fixed because he has no dental insurance? He can walk into any office and have the work done, and write a check at the end. Coverage IS available, for anything you're willing to pay for.

Well, I doubt he has 2k laying around to have his teeth fixed. I do not have to pay for that myself, I'm covered up to my [censored]. Even when staying in america.

Doctors don't charge crap. It's mostly all determined by the insurance companies unless you're in private practice with FFS (fee for service) and most people do not pay out of pocket which brings us back to insurance companies, HMOs, PPOs, etc.

I agree that the medical system in Europe (well I am only familiar with Sweden and Germany) is better than the US in a lot of ways but you also get taxed up the wazoo for it up front. When I was in Canada, taxes ranged from around 14-20%. Compare that with most places in the US where it's 7% or less.

@Nanug, I totally agree that frivolous lawsuits are a big part of it. Many doctors are avoiding or getting out of fields like obstetrics or surgery cause of huge malpractice insurance fees. Also, you can't pay out of pocket for everything. If you need any major procedures done, that's a crazy amount of money. But for small things, it's not really a problem.

Back on topic:

Yeah, great, you're making $200k+ but half of it is going towards insurance and student loans (okay, not half obviously but a lot of it). Of course, there are the successful ones who pull in a lot more than $200k/year but they are a small percentage. Think about how many people are in business/real estate and how many of them are Donald Trump. Same idea.

I love how people generalize how rich doctors are and how overpaid they are. From a financial perspective, it's a lot smarter to go into law, business, dentistry, etc. 4 years of college + 4 years of dentistry/law = $100k+ paycheck without a lot of the hassle. You're also in the work force a lot earlier which means more money to invest which means more money in the long run.

Generalizing? I'm NOT generalizing! The 200k per year is an amount that almost any heart surgeon makes. Just go to salary.com and look it up. The median income for a heart surgeon in LA is about 450k. If you are within the top 5 percent or so, you can go as high as 800k a year!

And yes, taxes are very high over here. Sales tax is as high as 19% and gas costs about 7$ a gallon (reason for that is probably environmental taxes and not our medical system - we do care about the environment )

I could be a doctor for free and move to the US, they take german surgeons with hand kisses. I could even get PAID while studying if I agree to work 5 years for the army after I graduate. That means free college+medschool and about 2k each month while I'm studying. Does that sound good or what? When I told people in america that, they were amazed. One of them even moved to germany and is going to medschool over there because of what I told him.

[Jumbie]

It's also actually driving the Korean couple in question back to Korea: they can't keep up with the legal fees necessary to defend themselves.

You'd think someone would take this as a pro bono case.

I'm not certain that the objective of tort reform is what's happening here

I don't think this is the correct way to go about tort reform. You don't put someone through this to make a point.

There is no doubt that there is a requirement for some type of tort reform though. I'm sure the majority would agree.

I mean it's getting to the point where an oven needs to have a large sign on it saying "Please do not fall asleep in here while the temperature is set to 450 degrees F or you will risk burning yourself" in order to prevent someone from suing over doing just that. Or a pair of shoes needs to warn against wearing them while skydiving without a parachute because it could lead to "serious bodily harm".

Obviously two examples I made up but it's almost getting to that point in my mind.

[ryyannon]

I think you'd make a great surgeon, Slay!

Now, tell me what country you plan to practice in so I can make certain I don't live there

Just sayin'....have a nice time in the U.S. of A, Killer!

[Jumbie]

Generalizing? I'm NOT generalizing! The 200k per year is an amount that almost any heart surgeon makes. Just go to salary.com and look it up.

Now look up how much his malpractice costs. Not to mention the amount of time he spent in residency to get there.

The median income for a heart surgeon in LA is about 450k. If you are within the top 5 percent or so, you can go as high as 800k a year!

Yeah, and the top 5% of X makes a lot more money than the average as well.

Also, how many docs are heart surgeons compared with family practice, internal medicine, etc.? You are picking people at the top of the food chain for your example - this includes brain surgeons, plastic surgeons, anesthesiologists, interventional radiologists, etc.

I could be a doctor for free and move to the US, they take german surgeons with hand kisses. I could even get PAID while studying if I agree to work 5 years for the army after I graduate. That means free college+medschool and about 2k each month while I'm studying. Does that sound good or what? When I told people in america that, they were amazed. One of them even moved to germany and is going to medschool over there because of what I told him.

It's not so easy to get into the US medical system afterwards. Not impossible, but you don't just waltz in and be like "Hey, I'm a doctor in Germany/UK/Sweden. Sign me up."

Good luck to your friend. He will need to write his boards and jump through a lot of hoops afterwards.

The army is an option. Most people don't take it. There's a reason for that. I do know people who have though. Moonlighting is a better one IMO.

By the way, the US army does not pay for non-US citizens to go to medical school although they offer a "loan forgiveness" program once you actually are a doc.

[edit]

I think I misread and you are actually talking about being paid while studying in Germany rather than in the US.

[/edit]

Edited June 22, 2007 by Jumbie

[ryyannon]

Hey, the guys on Nip and Tuck are making millions!

And they get tons of girls as well!

I know this is true 'cause I've seen it many times on the tv!

(Much) more seriously:

Example: my wife suddenly needs surgery again. She called a doctor yesterday, went the same day for her appointment, got tests back, and scheduled surgery for 2 weeks from now. She could have done it next week if she wanted. No waiting, no queues, no worries... as long as I have deep pockets.

Very sorry to hear this,....hope it all works out - will be wishing you all well.

[Jumbie]

Ooops, I think I misread something.

You meant you can be paid to go to school while in Germany right? I thought you were speaking about the US since I know the US Army does that as well.

[Jumbie]

Yup. I mentioned dentistry earlier as a better profession for making bucks.

Medicine has a greater overall potential depending in what you go into and how successful you are but for an average decent salary with not nearly as much risk or time investment, you can't beat certain other fields.

Plus, a lot of dentists still get fee for service. They aren't capped by insurance companies or have to deal with as much BS anyway.

Honestly, if I wanted to just make a lot of cash, I could work in my father's business and just take it over one day. He makes more money than I likely will as a physician because I don't want to go into surgery and don't have the grades/connections for some of the more lucrative fields (although anything's possible). I just have no interest in his retail business.

[Jumbie]

To add to the above. I have a friend who is nearly ending his surgical residency. He has a good shot at plastics. If he makes it, he will likely make a very good income. However, two of his older brothers are doctors. One of them is married to a doctor as well. His sister is a doctor. His other sister is married to a doctor. His oldest brother is in business.

Guess who makes the most money. Yup, the oldest brother.

[ryyannon]

Honestly, if I wanted to just make a lot of cash, I could work in my father's business and just take it over one day. He makes more money than I likely will as a physician because I don't want to go into surgery and don't have the grades/connections for some of the more lucrative fields (although anything's possible). I just have no interest in his retail business.

Hey, wait a minute!

Tell your father I'll do it!

What's his business anyway?

You say your last name is Soprano?

Snarky comment: why aren't you a VIP member already?

[Jumbie]

Cause my daddy has money. I'm a poor student (though not as poor as some).

[Pugwash]

You guys are all barking up the wrong tree... the REAL money is in orthodontics.

The REAL real money is in insurance.

[Jumbie]

The REAL real money is in insurance.

Ahaha, you got that right. How could I have missed the obvious? heh

Gotta be up there in the ranks though. I'm sure the plebs make nothing.

Pharmaceuticals would also be a good idea. One of my Pharm profs had to make a disclaimer when he was teaching us that he owned stock in one of the anti-cancer drugs; which I actually think was pretty cool (that he did it I mean).

Another guy that we had as a guest lecturer was a psychiatrist and also had a degree in Pharmacology (dunno at what level; guessing just a Bachelor's). That made him pretty attractive to the drug companies to pimp their products. He told us that 3-4 times/year they send him on an all-expense paid trip to wherever (the last time being somewhere in the Far East) and pay him around $10k to give a 1/2 hour speech. Nice!

[slay]

Now look up how much his malpractice costs. Not to mention the amount of time he spent in residency to get there.

Yeah, and the top 5% of X makes a lot more money than the average as well.

Also, how many docs are heart surgeons compared with family practice, internal medicine, etc.? You are picking people at the top of the food chain for your example - this includes brain surgeons, plastic surgeons, anesthesiologists, interventional radiologists, etc.

It's not so easy to get into the US medical system afterwards. Not impossible, but you don't just waltz in and be like "Hey, I'm a doctor in Germany/UK/Sweden. Sign me up."

Good luck to your friend. He will need to write his boards and jump through a lot of hoops afterwards.

The army is an option. Most people don't take it. There's a reason for that. I do know people who have though. Moonlighting is a better one IMO.

By the way, the US army does not pay for non-US citizens to go to medical school although they offer a "loan forgiveness" program once you actually are a doc.

[edit]

I think I misread and you are actually talking about being paid while studying in Germany rather than in the US.

[/edit]

So? If you dont WANT be be a heart/brain/whatsoever surgeon, fine. But if you WANT to be one, you can most likely be one.

And its really really NOT hard to get into the US medical system. A Bunch of our friends are doctors (and some have worked in the US for some time), they know how hard it actually is to be a doc and how to work at a US hospital. You can probably not just fly over and start working the very first second you stepped into the hospital, but if you managed 7 years of medschool, you can adopt to the US medical system quite easy.

And yes, I was talking about becoming a Doc in the german army. Why the hell would ANYONE want to be in the US army? Unless they're suicidal. Operation human shield!

And I was also only figuratively speaking, I wont become a doc. I was never into biology. But who knows Getting paid while going to one of the best medschools doesnt sound too bad, now does it?