A Sticking Point

[freddy333]

I am having some trouble fitting my v72 movement into the DW 6239 case. There is a pin that sticks out the side of the pillar plate, between the stem and the lower pusher that is causing the problem

Anyone run into this before?

Also, should the DW hands be a tight fit onto the v72's pinions? I might be able to press them on with some force, but it would definitely take more force than I am used to having to apply to attach a hand. Has anyone had a problem fitting DW's hands?

_________

UPDATE: I just compared the Flytimer's original chrono hands to the set I received from DW, and the holes in the original hands are definitely larger, as you can see in this photo

The other hands (hour, minute, chrono seconds) are similarly too small. So, unless broached (and, unfortunately, I do not have the proper broach), I do not see how the DW hands can possibly fit a v72 movement. What have others done for hands when building a DW?

[eunomians]

Not sure what that pin is...

But I can tell you that DW parts are not exact. In fact, to fully assemble a watch, you'll need a large dose of luck.

I still have one left that is not done. I have all the parts, but I have no patience to deal with the shoddily-made parts these days.

[freddy333]

Euno -- Not very encouraging, but I appreciate your input. I guess I was expecting more assembly than construction. Hopefully, someone else will know what the pin is and if I have the wrong hands. I can see that it will be worth the effort once I can get it done.

[freddy333]

Has anyone with a completed DW project ever run into these 2 issues before (the pin sticking out of the side of the v72 & the DW hands not fitting the Valjoux pinions)? DW tells me all of the hands should fit, but they clearly do not.

[RWG Technical]

The pin is an alignment pin as far as I know...at least that was my conclusion. I don't think it serves any function...

Assembling these is not really assembly, no more so that buying a bunch of parts and assembling a watch and calling it a "Hand Made watch" is considered Hand Making something... Making something implies actually making something, not assembling a bunch of parts someone else made...

In the case of the V72, forget the hands, the DW hands are no where near anything you can use on a V72...you need genuine V72 hands. Also if you noted the V72 subdial hands need varing length tubes for them to capture the posts.

As for fitting the movement into the case, it does require some modifications, one of which is to remove the pin so you can get it to fit the case, the other is to make some case clamps depending on the original attachment method of the doner V72, etc...

It's quite a challenge to put one of these together, as no matter what, nothing seems to fit without some modification and ingenuity on the part of the person doing the work...I have had to broach hands, even the V72 ones...

RG

[freddy333]

Thanks Ziggy.

I thought the pin was for alignment also, but I wanted to get a second opinion before I make any permanent modifications to an (expensive) movement.

The DW hands look great and appear to be pretty well made (surprisingly, the 3 subdial hands DO have the correct varying length tubes)

But the holes in all 6 hands are just too small to fit onto the pinions of the v72. I can probably broach them if you (or someone) know the correct sizes of the pinions. Also, do you (or someone) know of a good, reasonably priced broaching set? Am I correct in thinking that I need smoothing broaches (and a hand holder) as opposed to cutting broaches to enlarge the holes in the hands?? Does that sound right, RG? Is there a broaching set you would recommend that contains the right types & sizes?

The case the donor came with was not its original case. It looked like the previous owner sort of jury-rigged the movement into the case using the original movement fixing screw holes, but the movement was a bit loose in the case when I got it. So I will probably have to come up with something better once I can get the movement into the case to see what fits where and how.

And for anyone else who is considering a DW project, you should also expect to have to replace the DW pushers with another set because the pusher holes in the case are just slightly too large for the pushers DW supplies with the case. If you have ever tried to put a screw into a screw hole that is just slightly too large for the screw, where the screw threads never quite interlock (because there is too much space between them), you will have the same experience with these pushers. The gap is not so big that the pushers slide in and out of the holes freely, but the screw threads between the screw and hole do not mate either. So there is no way (short of gluing the pushers into the holes) to properly secure DWs pushers into his case. Fortunately, on a fluke, I found that the pushers I have been getting from ofrei ($12/each) are a perfect fit and I think they are also machined a bit better than the DW pushers. They certainly have a 'richer' feel in use. So when you order a DW case, be sure to order a few pushers from ofrei (part number PD61.701) at the same time.

Thanks again, RG. I will keep you posted on my progress.

[eunomians]

Zig summed it up nicely. To put one of these together takes a lot of ingenuity and skill.

None of the parts are made to any specific tolerances, they are just approximations that vary significantly from batch to batch.

Too bad, DW could've been a great seller if he'd stuck to his original plan a few years ago of working with his initial buyers closely.

After all of his woes, he set up shop again, but it ain't the same whatsoever.

Anyhow, I hope that V72 collectors will have something to rejoice over once this Rolex rep craze dies down. Give me a JLC V72 over a DW V72 rep any day!

---- Best of luck freddy333, part of the fun I guess is the thrill of the chase. Trust me, once you're done with this watch, you'll wear it for a week, then it look puny and it will begin to annoy you. Then the watch will live in your drawer for the rest of its life.

[freddy333]

Euno -- You are sort of right that the watch will probably spend most of its time in a drawer, but not for the reason you mentioned. I just do not think a vintage Daytona is appropriate for daily wear. At least not for me. You probably know that I have had a Venus/Lemania Newman for several years and I would wear it every day if it was appropriate (and I did not mind getting scratches on it, there are none currently).

But I am also always conscious of the fact that it does not have asymmetric pushers, so I am sometimes hesitant to wear it to places where I might run into people who know what to look for. But once I complete this v72 Newman, that will be one less thing to worry about and the new watch will get a bit more wrist time.

Based on my email exchanges with DW, I think the problem is the same that many Asian rep sellers have -- they do not really know these watches. DW sent me a photo of his personal Daytona and, by our standards, it was a mess. He had an Oyster dial and pump pushers with a Triplock crown. And, until I pointed these things out, he was totally unaware there was any difference. (I cannot really blame DW, since there are so many variations and exceptions to every design rule within Rolex's models, especially these Newman Daytonas.) I have had similar conversations with other Asian sellers of better quality rep watches and parts. A popular dial seller recently updated some of their dials as per my instructions after I gave them a laundry list of problems on their existing dials. They simply were unaware of the details and this is why it is so hard to find rep parts that are completely correct. They have bits and pieces of the puzzle, but never seem to connect the dots, to use the parlance of our times (for you Lebowsky fans out there).

[freddy333]

In the case of the V72, forget the hands, the DW hands are no where near anything you can use on a V72...you need genuine V72 hands. Also if you noted the V72 subdial hands need varing length tubes for them to capture the posts.

...I have had to broach hands, even the V72 ones...

Ziggy -- Does this broaching set from Cas-Ker look like it contains the correct sizes for v72 hands?

The price is good & it comes in a case that coordinates with my drapes.

[RWG Technical]

Thanks Ziggy.

I thought the pin was for alignment also, but I wanted to get a second opinion before I make any permanent modifications to an (expensive) movement.

Well I have filed a few off, and they are still working fine, so it doesnt' seem to make a difference...

The DW hands look great and appear to be pretty well made (surprisingly, the 3 subdial hands DO have the correct varying length tubes)

Yes indeed they do have the correct tube lengths, that's really good. Now you have to broach them to fit.

But the holes in all 6 hands are just too small to fit onto the pinions of the v72. I can probably broach them if you (or someone) know the correct sizes of the pinions. Also, do you (or someone) know of a good, reasonably priced broaching set? Am I correct in thinking that I need smoothing broaches (and a hand holder) as opposed to cutting broaches to enlarge the holes in the hands?? Does that sound right, RG? Is there a broaching set you would recommend that contains the right types & sizes?

My experience in broaching many hands (I seem to be doing a lot of this lately with Swiss 7750 swaps) is that it's a trial and test method. You can't choose a 0.22mm (for example) broach and run it through and expect it to fit. I cut the hand a bit, clean it off, test it, and continue to cut and test until it fits the way I want it to. I use a set of Bergeron cutting broaches, not sure of the part number as they are quite old...they are just an assortment of broaches.

The case the donor came with was not its original case. It looked like the previous owner sort of jury-rigged the movement into the case using the original movement fixing screw holes, but the movement was a bit loose in the case when I got it. So I will probably have to come up with something better once I can get the movement into the case to see what fits where and how.

I have had to custom bend and make clamps for all the ones I have worked on.

Thanks again, RG. I will keep you posted on my progress.

Ok sounds good, it's a great learning experience, and a way to realize that when you say to someone "It took me 4 hours to install this V72 in your case..." your not kidding. It's hard to understand what the problem was or why it took so much time ... there was no "problem" per see, it just takes a long time to get all these parts to fit together. Nothing is off the shelf put together with no effort...

RG

[freddy333]

Ziggy -- Do you know if a broach set ranging from .05mm to .55mm should cover all the hands on the v72 (hour, minute, chrono secs & subdials)? A few months ago, I took a chance and bought a nice Bergeon broaching set, but none of the broaches fit any of the hands I needed it for (too large). So I could use your guidance before I buy another one.

I expect that I will be bending and making clamps for this watch too. The only other 'gotcha' I can foresee is getting the pusher stems cut to the right length. Of the 6 pair I did previously, only 2 were wrong. But I learned from that experience to plan ahead, so I ordered a few extra just in case.

Other than that, once I get the hands broached and fitted and file off that pin on the side of the plate, I think the rest will fall into place since the crown/tube are already installed (easy) and I have test fit the T21 crystal without any problems.

[eunomians]

The bezel will not fit over the T-21. Gently file away the underside inner edge of your bezel(s).

[freddy333]

The bezel will not fit over the T-21. Gently file away the underside inner edge of your bezel(s).

Euno -- Thank you for the tip. I am a bit confused though, because I had no trouble fitting the 6239 bezel over the gen T21

In fact, I was surprised at how easily the bezel fit over the crystal. So I was planning to apply some G-C Hypo to the bottom of the crystal to help seal out moisture & dust (I would never swim or wear this watch in the water).

Or, do you mean after the crystal is fit onto the case? I will give that a try and report back in a few...

_________

UPDATE: Here is a picture of the bezel/T21 installed half-way on the 6239 case (I did not want to press it down all the way to avoid putting undo stress on the crystal until the rest of the work is completed)

I pressed the bezel on entirely by hand (with moderate pressure).

As a side note -- I agree with Avitt that these '200 UNITS' bezels arrive looking quite shoddy, but they polish up real nice (I just used some mag & aluminum wheel polish and a terry cloth towel).

I think I am going to have alot of trouble keeping this watch in a drawer.....

[eunomians]

Looks like DW finally decided to fix those bezels a little bit.

Best of luck. I hope that you decide to slap on the lizard strap with the Rolex buckle. That would be a very nice combo.

By the way, what dial are you going to use?

[freddy333]

Yes, I think either DW fixed the bezels (or reduced the diameter of the bezel portion of the case) or maybe I just got lucky.

As for straps & dials........well, funny you should ask.....

The plan is to move the lizard strap with the Rolex buckle over to the DW 6241 (case is en route and should arrive in a few days) and kit the 6239 that I am currently working on (the one in the photos above) with a folded 7835 (also en route).

Based on the pseudo survey I ran last week, this is how things shook out.......

The 6241 will get the black dial and look like the watch on the right, but with a re-aligned mirror marker at 6 (and hopefully with hands)

(You can see the paint smearing around the 115 mark on the tachymeter and overall shoddy appearance of the bezel (on left) as it was received from DW. If you compare this to the photo (above) of the bezel with the T21, you will see how well it cleaned up with a bit of polish and elbow grease. Like Avitt said, it truly is a diamond in the rough.)

Completed, it should look similar to this (but with red chrono seconds markers around the circumference of the dial instead of the black ones on this dial)

And the 6239 will look like the watch on the left (white dial en route with 6241 case)

Thoughts?

[eunomians]

You have discriminating tastes my friend.

I think that your choices here are very well thought out.

I agree that the black dial 6241 would look best with the lizard action; whilst the white 6239 pairs up nicely with the folded 7835.

Please don't hesitate to post pics whenever you get around to it.

I find that the black Newman dial paired up with the lizard strap is really the true classic Paul Newman style.

Best regards

[freddy333]

Euno -- Actually, it was some of your comments about the 6241 & lizard strap that helped to convince me to keep that combination together. Of course, now I have to find another 2 v72s -- 1 for the 6241 & the other for the poor Flytimer

(It looks cooler every time I see it)

[eunomians]

*Gasp* You did it? Poor Flytimer! I hope you resurrect it one day

I did the same with a super gorgeous 41mm diameter Zodiac Sea-Chron. Broke my heart, but brought it back to life. I sold it very recently to a friend and fellow V72 chrono collector. It was a good move on my part because he wears it quite often.

------------

The first genuine Newman I ever saw in person (as well as handled) was a black-dialed TT 6241 that had a Rolex black lizard strap with gold Rolex buckle. Wow. This was back in the early-mid 90s.

[RWG Technical]

Ziggy -- Do you know if a broach set ranging from .05mm to .55mm should cover all the hands on the v72 (hour, minute, chrono secs & subdials)? A few months ago, I took a chance and bought a nice Bergeon broaching set, but none of the broaches fit any of the hands I needed it for (too large). So I could use your guidance before I buy another one.

I expect that I will be bending and making clamps for this watch too. The only other 'gotcha' I can foresee is getting the pusher stems cut to the right length. Of the 6 pair I did previously, only 2 were wrong. But I learned from that experience to plan ahead, so I ordered a few extra just in case.

Other than that, once I get the hands broached and fitted and file off that pin on the side of the plate, I think the rest will fall into place since the crown/tube are already installed (easy) and I have test fit the T21 crystal without any problems.

The V23/72 hand sizes are

Subdials 0.22mm

Hour 1.40mm

Minute 0.85mm

Chrono seconds 0.22mm

So I would think the set from 0.05 to 0.55 should work just fine...

Your lucky on the crystal, not one I have installed went on, without grinding the inner edge of the bezel.

RG

[freddy333]

*Gasp* You did it? Poor Flytimer! I hope you resurrect it one day

I did the same with a super gorgeous 41mm diameter Zodiac Sea-Chron. Broke my heart, but brought it back to life. I sold it very recently to a friend and fellow V72 chrono collector. It was a good move on my part because he wears it quite often.

------------

The first genuine Newman I ever saw in person (as well as handled) was a black-dialed TT 6241 that had a Rolex black lizard strap with gold Rolex buckle. Wow. This was back in the early-mid 90s.

It was more like a <gulp> when I ripped out the Fly's 'guts'. And to tell you the truth, I am still smarting over it. Although it was not a beater, it had become my favorite (wearable) watch. There is just something about that Flytimer......not sure what, but something. Anyway, it will fly again once I get these 2 Newmans done.

You have good taste and a good eye. I know that Zodiac and I can see why it would break your heart to part it out for another watch. But I do not know how you ever brought yourself to give it up, even to a worthy friend. Once I get the Fly running again, it will definitely remain in my permanent collection.

I think I saw my first Newman on a lizard strap at a NYC auction in the early 80s (when I started collecting). There was something about that tool watch fitted with this very formal lizard strap that just clicked with me and I have wanted one ever since. The Venus/Lemania Newman has been a good placeholder until I can get the v72 project done. Hopefully soon.

[freddy333]

Zig -- Thanks for the hand sizes. That helps alot. But it looks like that broaching set will only cover the chrono hands and, unfortunately, I will need to broach ALL of the hands DW sent. Not one of them fit on the v72 pinions. Not a single one. I may have to order 2 broaching sets.

But from the sounds of it, based on your and Euno's experience, I guess I did get lucky in the crystal department.

On a more negative note, after removing that pin, the movement still does not quite fit into the case. It is just a hair too large. Did you have to file the inside of any of the DW cases to get the movement in?

[Guest avitt]

Of the many DW cases that I've handled, I've had a problem with the dimensions of two. One was reported by a watchmaker friend, who fixed things himself. The other was one of my own cases. I fixed it by using a Swiss file to relieve the inner circumference. It's an annoying problem, but easily overcome.

[freddy333]

Thanks (as always), Avitt. I think I may try some emory paper before I bring in the big guns (the files). The overhang is really very slight and a good, coarse sanding may just do the trick.

You might be interested in this photo I just took for DW that illustrates why his pushers do not fit tightly into his cases

The micrometer is measuring the diameter of the screw portion of the pusher (at left) and the hole gauge is measuring one of the pusher holes in DW's 6239 case (at right). (The hole gauge is actually a bit loose in the hole, but the next size down was too small.) As you can see, the hole in the case is slightly larger than the diameter of the pusher, which is why it fails to tighten down into the case.

[Guest avitt]

Interesting picture, freddy333. I didn't comment on the pushers, because I have no experience with DW's pump pushers (I've only used his screw-downs, which do fit correctly). I also use Ofrei pushers on pre-Oyster Daytonas.

[freddy333]

Avitt -- I think the Pre-Daytonas use the same parts (case, pushers, etc.) as the 6239 that I am working on. Did you try DW's pushers on your Pre-Daytona before using the Ofreis?

I spent 30 minutes last night trying to widen the rear opening of the case with coarse emory paper and it helped, but not enough. Not sure I can maintain a smooth, round surface with a hand file. So I think I am going to try grinding the case with my Dremel and this

This little bit made short work of that pin on the v72's pillar plate yesterday. I think I will be able to achieve a more even result with the dremel than with a hand file.