ar0401 Posted October 26, 2007 Report Share Posted October 26, 2007 Here is the story. I decided to change the cyclop on my PAM 089 (which came from River) to the more suitable chieftang's one I bought a few months ago. When I detached the crystal, I found, to my surprise, that the cyclop is not simply glued to the surface of the crystal, but rather embedded into it. In other words, the crystal has a cylindrical cavity in it, and the cyclop is attached within the cavity, so its top is almost flush with the back surface of the crystal. By the way, it may be of interest for some members, the diameter of the cavity (and the cyclop) is 6.1 mm. Anyway, it looks like this is an attempt on the manufacturer side to make the crystal (and cyclop magnification) even closer to the original, but apparently the size is a little bit too small for this model. It came as a complete surprise to me, so I decided to share this observation with the forum members Now I probably need a new 44 mm sapphire crystal, in order to make the intended modification, so if somebody has one spare, please PM me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lysis Posted October 26, 2007 Report Share Posted October 26, 2007 Ironically, that's what Panerai does with the gens. Unfortunately, as you stated, the rep factory didn't get the dimensions correct -- probably because they didn't have a gen on hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showto...st&p=209009 http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showto...st&p=214485 http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=22881 http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showto...st&p=219628 http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showto...st&p=273939 http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showto...st&p=296129 http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=53226 Besides of that... 089 comes in D, E, F, and G series. If your 089 is D series, a 6mm cyclops is decent (evef if not perfect). If it is E series, 6.4-6.5mm would be better. So a Chieftang cyclops (6.75mm) is acceptable. On F and G series, go for a Chieftang cyclops no doubt. Just, you either need to make a brand new sandwich crystal or to replace the sandwich crystal with a normal crystal (recommended). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 That is the problem with replacing cyclops with many of the newer PAM reps. Sssurfer is the only person I know who tried and actually got the crystals apart. Sssurfer- Have you replaced a sandwich crystal with a single? I assumed the sandwich was thicker and so you would have space you need to fill between the crystal and the bezel/case and would need a new gasket. Lysis- I didn't know they used a sandwich crystal on gens. I am looking at one right now and it is impossible to tell without taking it apart but I have yet to take a gen PAM apart. Just looking at it, it looks more like the cyclops is drilled into the crystal and that is what I always assumed. But I have never owned a gen later than an F series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 Sssurfer is the only person I know who tried and actually got the crystals apart. Well, kruzer, I actually was the 2nd to try it. Lello tried before me, and he also succeded in getting the two layers glued back together, while I failed. The glue I used raised tons of Newton rings. Sssurfer- Have you replaced a sandwich crystal with a single? I assumed the sandwich was thicker and so you would have space you need to fill between the crystal and the bezel/case and would need a new gasket. The difference in thickness between the sandwich crystal and the single was negligible, W. The same teflon gasket worked perfectly on both. Instead, the crystal + cyclops thickness was obviously much higher on the single, and it made me obliged to use a Watchmen cyclops (the thinner and most powerful cyclops I am aware of) in place of the original one. That all happened on a Joshua's low-cost 104. A while later, Chieftang's single-side AR coating greatly improved the date readability by the Watchmen cyclops, and I recently managed to reshape the CG. That watch is still waiting for an archibald's datewheel layer, I plan to post pics of the final result right thereafter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 M- It could be time to organize a group buy of properly sized sapphire crystals. I have a few of our cyclops and Chief's hanging around with Ziggy (I think). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 Double post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 M- It could be time to organize a group buy of properly sized sapphire crystals. I have a few of our cyclops and Chief's hanging around with The Zigmeister (I think). Yea, let's get some specific dimensions... I've sot some sources with potentially decent prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 M- Chief has great sources. Can you provide the measurements. We can hook them up with cyclops and single AR coat. By the way guys Arch will be conducting beta testing on the 28. Life is good. -Kruz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ar0401 Posted October 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 My kudos, gentlemen! The depth/level of detail in the info provided is just unbelievable. Thanks a lot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted October 29, 2007 Report Share Posted October 29, 2007 M- Chief has great sources. Can you provide the measurements. We can hook them up with cyclops and single AR coat. By the way guys Arch will be conducting beta testing on the 28. Life is good. -Kruz Here's to Arch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted October 29, 2007 Report Share Posted October 29, 2007 Folks, if you are speaking about the sandwich crystal, its measures are: inner layer (flat) thickness: 1.41mm outer layer (domed) thickness: 2.06mm at the center, 1mm at the edge. So the assembled crystal is 3.47mm thick at the center, 2.41mm at the edge. Adding 0.03-0-04mm for the glue, we go to 3.5mm center, 2.45mm edge. If you are speaking about single crystal, Jimmyzfu's crystals dimensions (which I suppose to be taken from a gen) are 3.6mm center, 2.8mm edge. You can see this is a little thicker, but a little less domed, than the first. OP official catalogues state central thickness for Luminor models as 3.5mm, with exception for the PR and chrono models that are 2.5mm. '1950' models (e.g. 212, 213) are 2mm thick. Radiomirs vary from 1.2mm to 1.9mm. Diameter should be 35.5mm. This would fit 90% of 44mm reps. But I saw 44mm reps with crystals as small as 34.93mm diameter, and as large as 36mm. In the end, my recommended dimentions for a sandwich crystal would be: inner layer (flat, glass) thickness: 1.4mm outer layer (domed, sapphire) thickness: 2.1mm center, 1.1mm edge. diameter: 35.5mm BTW, Lello told me he had a source for the inner flat glass layer of sandwich crystals. But that source got problems in making a neat hole for the cyclops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 Folks, if you are speaking about the sandwich crystal, its measures are: inner layer (flat) thickness: 1.41mm outer layer (domed) thickness: 2.06mm at the center, 1mm at the edge. So the assembled crystal is 3.47mm thick at the center, 2.41mm at the edge. Adding 0.03-0-04mm for the glue, we go to 3.5mm center, 2.45mm edge. If you are speaking about single crystal, Jimmyzfu's crystals dimensions (which I suppose to be taken from a gen) are 3.6mm center, 2.8mm edge. You can see this is a little thicker, but a little less domed, than the first. OP official catalogues state central thickness for Luminor models as 3.5mm, with exception for the PR and chrono models that are 2.5mm. '1950' models (e.g. 212, 213) are 2mm thick. Radiomirs vary from 1.2mm to 1.9mm. Diameter should be 35.5mm. This would fit 90% of 44mm reps. But I saw 44mm reps with crystals as small as 34.93mm diameter, and as large as 36mm. In the end, my recommended dimentions for a sandwich crystal would be: inner layer (flat, glass) thickness: 1.4mm outer layer (domed, sapphire) thickness: 2.1mm center, 1.1mm edge. diameter: 35.5mm BTW, Lello told me he had a source for the inner flat glass layer of sandwich crystals. But that source got problems in making a neat hole for the cyclops. Further discussion can certainly wait until after your whale shark expedition, but I assumed we were talking about a single crystal. But if we did pursue a double layer, we definitely don't want the inner layer to be glass. Glass doesn't produce the nice blueish hue when AR coated, only sapphire does. I'm quite certain that producing a flat piece of sapphire with a hole for chieftang's... err... my cyclops would be easy and inexpensive, but only in quantity. And one question is how many watches would work with the same hole location? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 Chief- If the person can cut a hole can they drill into the sapphire and keep it a single? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 Chief- If the person can cut a hole can they drill into the sapphire and keep it a single? Good question. If this actually picks up steam, I'll find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Back. Chieftang, I am pleasantly surprised to read that your source might be able to make sapphire layers provided with a hole. If he can, naturally this would be great both for the AR and the glue refraction problems. And obviously a single sapphire crystal with a hole embedded would be even better -- just, I am a bit dubious this is possible. If it is, I suspect that cost might become an issue. In any case, my suggestions about the dimensions stay the same: 3.5mm central thickness, 2.5mm edge thickness, 1.4mm hole depth. Btw, I am strongly persuaded that recessing the cyclops is the only way to go to 7mm diameter cyclops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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