My thoughts on Performance enhancing blah blah

[lanikai]

OK .. so i feel I need to make my statement regarding all the Drama and threats of taking away records etc. etc. etc.

With the revelation of the "Mitchell Report" and naming of names ( still no conclusive proof ) and the general population yelling "cheaters" hears fuel for the proverbial FIRE

Steroids.. Juice... SuSU...Vitamin B... what ever you want to call it was developed during WWII when survivors of concentration camps were so emancipated they needed drugs to restore their strength and appetite.. hence the US government further developed Anabolic and Androgenic Chemicals for muscle recovery.. And what steroids do is move water from outside the muscle cell to inside.. (in layman's terms)

Ok, so the "Rocket" and a host of others have taken the heat off of Barry Bonds.. not a bad thing IMHO, Baseball surely knew of these hypodermic training methods.. geezz the Eastern Europeans used to kick our butts long ago when women looked like well.. I don't know what they looked like but it was not the feminine gender..

I mean, I and the rest of the strength athletes could spot it right away .. you don't go from a XL to a XXXL in 1 year,.. physiological impossibility .. the human body can only put on 10 lbs. of muscle a year . with heavy training .. sleep,.. a lot of protein.... granted if you look at 10 lbs of hamburger it is a lot of mass, but regardless, going from 150 to 225 is not natural.. (I am not flaming them.. just relating facts) It's present in Hollywood.. a lot of them came to the gyms to get the "vitamins". what steroids do more than anything is speeds up the RECOVERY TIME.. when muscle cells break down,... it is now HGH Human growth hormone.. but it really is SGH synthetic growth hormones .. somatatrophin..etc..no longer are the pituatary glands of prople who don't need them anymore used.. synthetic growth hormones are more permanant and not detectable in urine test.. only the OCC test (Olympic very sophisticated and costly)

and baseball ..football .. and the rest of the US sports knew full well what was going on.... they used to give you the choice in College... " you want to win?..you willing to do it for the team?".. and now they are acting like .. SHOCK AND AWE "we had no idea'.. YEAH RIGHT.

I have an on going debate with a buddy of mine.. my stance is that you pay for a very skilled form of entertainment.. and you don't pay thousands of dollars to see in the park home runs.. or a 250 lb. lineman... or an athlete that runs 5.0 .. 40's.. ENTERTAINMENT..... he Say's it's the American Sport .. you play for the honour.. he never played a organized sport in his life... imagine being hurt and a shot will numb the pain so you could play and this one game was the most important to the team and to you .. for the rest of your life you will remember... no matter what the price you pay ??? it is about not letting down your team ... the guy that you bled with all summer during daily doubles.. etc ..etc.. we put so much emphasis on winning at any cost... from a young age... and society wants their team their city their school to win... the New York Yankees have no end to their wallet.. is this "cheating" to be able to buy the best talent??... Winning and Entertainment .. and of course least we forget $$$$$$$$$$ .. bonuses.. endorsements.... Jobs on the line

So hind site being 20/20 .. everyone can say now .. oooh cheat.. but baseball was dying.. then the supplements appear and boom.. crowds start coming back records start being broken corporate money appears .. TV etc etc...everyone starts prospering.. but now everyone that was involved in reaping the rewards are finding scape goats.. ahhh Corporate America .. gotta love it...NOT

We want to see freaks.. not that there are not athletes that are natural God given.. but if players around you were taking something to improve strength .. speed.. you would be inclined to do the same or be left behind...

Steroids don't improve fast twitch muscles..hand eye coordination.... athleticism... it deteriorates bone ..... you are more prone to joint injury.. roid rage.. that's a biggy.. so with all this in evidence they will crucify those that have given us years of enjoyment.. bash them daily in the news.... dissapoint children who made these guy's their heroes.. that is what is most distressing of all.. the kids..

Yet they cannot tell us why our gas prices are inflated ... or what really happened to Tony Saprano...so our latest sacrificial lambs of Coporate America are the player's that lived "the Dream" and gave us years of "gloryed Entertainment".. take away their medals .. their records.. but will corperate America give back the money or the commisioner give back his Post or his Salary...???? when they do everything to commercialize sports? .. American football in England.. think they're trying to get a piece of the EU pie.. for $$$$$ ...

Who really has created the need for Athletes to do whatever it takes to win?? Contracts .. Clauses.. bonus incentives???? PERFORMANCE!!!!

IF IT WEREN'T ABOUT WINNING OR LOOSING ... THEN WHY DO WE KEEP SCORE...... That is credited to a Duke Basketball coach.. who's name escapes me now.... no smiley face's .. this makes me mad ... Corporate America, Deniability... throw them under the Bus... WE GOT WHAT WE NEEDED FROM THEM...they got they're money.. it's ok to ruin their legacy now..

[The Mentalist]

Personally I have no problems with the juice. I have been seriously bodybuilding for many years and have taken virtually everything under the sun with NO ill effects. I feel that the governments around the world have totally overblown the dangers of these drugs. These are essentially benign compounds that cause no social problems. They are essentially cosmetic and ergogenic compounds that have a positive effect on a person's physical condition with little or no serious side effects compared to OTC compounds. If you were to line up a bottle of dianabol, acetominophen and valium and you were to take an overdose (ie, above the therapeutic dose) of any of them, Dianabol would be the one that won't kill you. As with any class of drugs, you have extremes where some are very safe and some can be very dangerous. Deca Durabolin is virtually harmless, even in high dosages whereas Oxymetholone can land you in hospital with liver failure. On the same note, with painkillers you have on one extreme Aspirin and on the other, Morphine. It is widely accepted in the medical profession that Anabolic Steroids as a class of drugs exhibit generally fewer dangerous side effects than for instance, analgesics. The stigma around steroids is nothing except propaganda and scaremongering misinformation propagated by the authorities.

[Guest jagleaso]

no offense, but steroids do ALOT more then move water around. LOL

[lanikai]

Yes it's said that Deca lubricates Joints where as the androgens make them brittle.. but we are talking of regular dosage.. .. before roids were declared a "controlled substance" around 84..85 you could walk into certain gyms and see the sirynges stuck in the ceiling like darts..

dianabol is the first generation .. Test .. Deca. were the founders of stregnth drugs.. when Noriaga was invaded they showed a room full of ND-4 and winstrol V... the pipeline was through Noreaga from from all over the world there was too much money involved not to make it iilegal

I hope Jose Canseco get's thrown under something .. he did not expose this for honour or dishonest habits.. he did it for pure money.. he sold out his brothehood

[Guest TTK]

Sorry......I don't agree with juicing up......it's cheating no matter how you look at it.....no different from someone who sneaks notes or an Ipod / phone etc into some important exam or other..>!

Everyone has a performance ceiling......regardless of whether it's bodybuilding or running /swimming / cycling etc etc.....the purpose of competition and the encouragement of it is to bring the cream to the top..... those whose natural abilities will make them rise above others....freedivers whose ability to hold their breath longer than others.....cyclists who can endure the burn longer than others...boxers who have the heart, skill and the stamina to go the distance and more...with only training and NO drug enhancements........these are the true heroes......!

If there was a new world order....and I headed it up......I'd make it quite simple....absolutely no tolerance of performance enhancing drugs.........and if you play for the New York Yankees.....Barcelona......Boston Celtics...Toronto BlueJays.......then you have to be born in that city that you represent.....that would determine who is truly best and would bring back true pride in the team / city that you support........what's the point of having a team 'represent' your city.....where 3/4 of the players are Italian / Spanish whatever nationality etc etc......with no ties to the city other than financial ties...!

It's called the Corinthian ideal.....with the emphasis on ideal....yet I acknowledge as Lanikai so eloquently puts it.....where there is money....especially large sums of money......corporations and individuals will abandon their ideals....in pursuit of the mighty dollar.....!

BTW........the saying goes....."be the best you can be".........not 'be the best you can be.....with the added help of some diabolical haemorrhoids"

Edited December 21, 2007 by TTK

[mikellem]

Neil,

You always put a smile on my face when I read you posts!

I do totally agree with you Neil... :laugh:

Merry Christmas to all.. and hope you all will be safe..

-MM

[lanikai]

I find your post as insightful and entertaining as ever TTK... imagine a city like San Francisco, we'd have a very eclectic ... but fashionable.. sports team.. cheerleaders can double for the outfield or a "wide receiver" that started out as a "tight end"...

but man has been looking for the edge since time began.. ie. royal jelly.. Greeks used to oil themselves for the ancient Olympics.. what is the sense of wrestling when you can't grapple your opponent cause he's a slippery mess.. but in a real fight as sometimes sports is there is no "fair' fight .. especially when life is involved .. NO? .. I think it boils sown to what the event is .. American football is a violent sport where you try and get away with whatever you can. .. where as golf.. (Scotland) .. is a gentlemans game of honour.. where it would be unforgivable to 'cheat' .. players disqualify themselves for errors.. made from mental lapses.. could you imagine a lineman raising his hand and saying ..' ahh sorry Ref. .. i need to disqualify myself.. yes I admit I held him and tried to gouge his eye out at the bottom of the pile.. i was wrong.. i'll leave now".....

the MIT chemist graduates now are being gobbled up by the supplement industry and now we have precursors.. supplements that enable your body to create the enzymes that steroids would put into you artificially... every month the government pulls something like:..Methal1-Alpha .. and the chemist alter a compound or single thread of it and it is legal for another month.. Mark Maguire was taking Androstene.. good stuff .. it was a so called precursor ...

[elwopo]

Your friend is correct. He still has optimism because he believes in the concept of honor....but eventually that will be beaten down out of him as well. Society has a great way of doing that.

Sport used to be about natural ability. Those who had it were honored....as well they should be.

Then at some point came the money aspect. Money....greed....as some believe is still the root of evil.

Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, Joe Namath, Johnny Unitas, Pele, Arthur Ashe, Jesse Owens, Mark Spitz.....the list can go on and on and on......

They had natural ability enhanced by pure hard work and dedication. Drive....not drugs.

But that's the hard way. No one likes that anymore. We're "advanced". We like easy quick and clean.

The first people who started taking "enhancing" drugs were the people who would not commit to dedication.

There was positive reinforcement in the form of money and fame. Why should they, or the problem, stop?

No matter what country anyone lives in.....

our police, teachers, firefighters, and caregivers are shamelessly underpaid for what they do and what we expect from them.

But....we have no problem with an ignorant dolt having millions....that's MILLIONS of dollars for no other reason than they can do something with a ball. They don't even have to be good on a regular basis! Get the contract....set for years.

Sure....it's hot topic now.....but that will pass soon...as all things do.

These guys will get on tv and say that they are concerned about their records, hall of fame, reputation....blah blah....

And when it's over they will cut through the crowd...get into the Escalade....go to their huge home and live a lifestyle that real hard working people can only dream about while watching "MTV cribs".

Sports stars are freaks...because we made them that way.

So who is wrong? Them...for playing the "game" and eventually getting caught....or us....for creating an environment where their lack of honor is not only ignored.....but encouraged.

[The Mentalist]

As a species, we owe it ourselves to push ourselves to be the best we can be and that includes using the most powerful muscle of them all, the brain, to enhance ourselves. It's no different from developing faster racing cars, we are just developing our bodies through science. You may call it cheating but that is just a matter of perspective depending on the rules. If steroids were legal, would it still be cheating? The science is there, people will use it or be tempted to use it. As long as there are no serious health or social ramifications, I say let it happen.

[lanikai]

Give me big .. give me freaks.. .. well put MT.. and it was legal until.....actually u can get everything on line now that "is' legal . precursurs.. works just as good ... stronger .. faster.. better... since the day's of the gladiators ..

Elo... I agree with your thoughts in a way... football players sacrifice their bodies relentlessly.. literally in pain for the rest of their lives.. 3 friends were paralyzed in high school and college.. it is the pressure to perform that society put's on us.. Lance Armstrong is the best example of hard work..8 hours a day in the mountains, relentless work.. sacrificing everything to be the best.. and what is he accuse of .. never tested postitive once.. highest level of lactid acid resistance in muscle tissue known to man. not artificial

What I am saying is society puts sports into the entertainment level... I don't golf with players that are anything but Honest .. it "is the Game" Honour and skill... but the world is looking for high end athletic entertainment... a friend of mine at the gym represented Samoa in the Olympics.. shot put... and his describing the Olympic walk around the stadium.. not of this world. he is honour .. period... the Olympic athletes that use chemicals should be stripped and banned .. I agree.. what i debate my buddy with is .. the sport has "turned" into commercial entertainment.. the owners the corporations have made it so.. it's the players that will pay the rest of their lives.. steroids are harmful.. i know people that have died from abuse... so yes to clarify it is society that want "blood" and the corporations that want the golden calf..

what I am saying is that Pro sports knew about this .. probably even condoned it .. it was obvious these players were not "natural" ... but don't put all the heat on the players.. when you used them to further the "business"

[By-Tor]

I agree that moderate, therapeutic, and short (6-8 week cycles, 2-3 x year) of drugs like Deca aren't extremely harmful to a healthy athletic individual (who has normal bp and cholestrol levels)... IF YOU'RE FULLY EDUCATED REGARDING THE SUBJECT AND KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING. Before they made steroids illegal in the Scandinavian countries everybody was able to get the best stuff without much hassle. Now when they're criminalized the juice comes from the ex-Soviet Union countries, and the risks have increased.

Nobody under the age of 28-30 should touch steroids. They're not for kids and youngsters... use your genetic potential to the fullest, end educate yourself regarding the subject FULLY, before you take anything. It's sad and pathetic when kids in their early 20's (with just a few years of training under their belt and their natural test levels running high) start using them, looking for "quick fixes". It's amazing how big and strong you can become naturally, if you have good information and dedication.

But using them wisely (and preferably under doctor's supervision) isn't even nearly as dangerous as the media wants people to believe. Misinformation creates hysteria, and hysteria creates lies and more hysteria. I've seen lots of people dying from alcohol and tobacco, but I've never heard of even one steroid-related death... NOT ONE... and I know a lot of old lifters in their 60's and 70's (who have juiced moderately for DECADES). They're all healthier and look about 100x better than the other guys at their age.

All unnatural deaths among the pro bodybuilders (who often take gigantic doses of steroids and HGH) are due to recreational drugs, painkillers and diuretics. Believe it or not, steroids are the safest drugs many of these guys are taking.

Yeah, I agree with TTK. It's cheating in professional sports, and there's absolutely no excuse for that (as long as we have these rules). But there's no excuse of lying to people about "dangers of steroids", either.

Most steroid related articles have been written by people who have absolutely no clue about them. Taking one aspirin might be good for you, but eating the whole bottle could kill you. Or enjoying a glass of wine every now and then vs. drinking half liters of vodka every day.

Using is not the same thing as abusing. It's sad that so many people are abusing them though.

[The Mentalist]

Here's an interesting question. How many of today's so-called 'natural' champions are truly natural? Natural only means passing a test for known illegal ergogenics. Balco made a fortune from THG and I do not doubt there are dozens if not tens of dozens of 'designer steroids' that will allow an athlete to sail through a drug test taking these thing with total impunity.

What is the difference between popping a course of anavar or loading up on Creatine? One's an illegal steroid, the other is a legal sports supplement. It's all a matter of labelling.

That said freakishness does have a limit. I much prefer Arnie or Frank Zane to someone like Big Ron Coleman. Too much growth hormone and GH turned him (and today's generation of IFBB pro's) into a fat gutted shapeless freak.

EDIT: I totally agree with you BT. It's good to see another brother of the Iron game on here.

Edited December 21, 2007 by The Mentalist

[By-Tor]

What is the difference between popping a course of anavar or loading up on Creatine?

Is this a trick question? Anavar works, of course.

[The Mentalist]

Hahahaha. Good one.

But don't tell anyone that

I forgot. Anavar also doesn't give you the shits.

Edited December 21, 2007 by The Mentalist

[lanikai]

man .. go figure.. u guy's are either doctors or have first hand knowledge.. Anavar is the strongest stregnth drugs known to man.. and yes someone peeled over from heart failure ... 11 a day..

the european countries had the best,.. Sten from Germany.. now from Mexico, asia.. .. even creatine .. best comes from german and UK labs.. china labs gives you the shits

yes man has a ceiling .. but the power of the heart in gut check time you really can elevate your"desire" to reach down for a little more when all systems say quit.. it is the human spirit that makes winners..

I am gratful I don't have to be a XXXL anymore .. i can train naturally and use "heart" instead.. but when you are up against others who juice .. well nuff said..

Arnold comes to hawaii and is a good friend of us all.. he has had 7 by-pass surgeries.. liver and heart can take only so much

A friend.. Nuero surgen asked if i wanted to take HGH .. I asked him what for?? it decreases certain immune system... but it has its porpose.. for seniors etc.

[Guest TTK]

No matter what country anyone lives in.....

our police, teachers, firefighters, and caregivers are shamelessly underpaid for what they do and what we expect from them.

But....we have no problem with an ignorant dolt having millions....that's MILLIONS of dollars for no other reason than they can do something with a ball. They don't even have to be good on a regular basis! Get the contract....set for years.

@elwopo......you've just climbed way up in my estimation......I could not agree more wholeheartedly.....and I won't vent any further about 'celebrity' and the injustices of it...expounded by the great unwashed who get swayed by it.....!

Greeks used to oil themselves for the ancient Olympics.. what is the sense of wrestling when you can't grapple your opponent cause he's a slippery mess..

Not quite the same thing.....oiling up is NOT a performance enhancing drug.....and both wrestlers do it.....so they're on a level playing field.....when you have someone like Barry Bonds....bulking up and hitting like he does....no amount of oil will do that.....he is changing his physiology to give himself an unfair advantage over others who are not using performance enhancing drugs.....it's the drugs that are ENHANCING his performance....why.....because he's hit the boundaries of his performance envelope....and has no other way of achieving better or more consistent results.....!

Question:.....Would you say that a salesman who lies about the terms of his contract to his customer in order to get the sale..particularly in a high value deal.....should be awarded Salesman of the Month .....same as a student who achieves summa c u m laude....yet leapfrogged over his co-students by using some sort of storage device to assist him...cheating is CHEATING...regardless.....and trying to cloak it in any other terms is just hogwash......violent sports or not.....!

but in a real fight as sometimes sports is there is no "fair' fight .

In a real fight there are no rules......you are fighting for preservation of life....sport has no such distinction.....and sport does have rules.....NO DRUGS.....and your proposition that it is acceptable is as ridiculous as saying that in a real fight....one of the opponents can use a hammer and it's all fair in love or war.....it isn't....this is quite simply......sport...!

SPORT

DICTIONARY DEFINITION

sport (sp

Edited December 21, 2007 by TTK

[By-Tor]

@lanikai: Most professional strength athletes don't understand what "moderate" means. That's the main problem.

Have you ever seen Andreas Munzer's last cycle? I think that's one of the saddest examples. Although also in Munzer's case it was the diurectics that killed him.

[The Mentalist]

Munzer's last cycle:

Weeks 1-10

ephedrine

aspirin

clenbuterol

valium

captagon-- scheduled 1 drug in the US, meaning no legitimate medical use-- it is an amphetamine-type stimulant--

cytomel

Weeks 1-5

500mg daily of test enanthate

152mg daily of parabolan

150mg daily of dianabol

150mg daily of halotestin

20 IU daily of HGH

20 IU daily of Insulin

Weeks 6-8

300mg daily of masteron

152mg daily of parabolan

250mg daily of winstrol tabs

150mg daily of halotestin

50mg daily of winstrol inj

24 IU daily of HGH

Weeks 9-10

200mg daily of masteron

100mg daily of winny inj

200mg daily of halotestin

400mg daily of winny tabs

24 IU daily of HGH

Insulin daily

IGF-1 daily

Days 1-3 leading up to show

aldactone, lasix

That is some serious juice, even by the psycho standards of today's pro's.

[lanikai]

point taken.. so barry bonds took it to get on a 'so called 'level playing field with everyone else that was taking it.. when does it stop? .. my point is that baseball knew about it and now are denying any knowledge of it.. common!!

the only fair field .. as you say both wresters did it is .. no one does it or it's open to all... and sports by definition is all rules, .. so does human nature allow everyone to follow rules.. no... winning is paramount ..in American football you are literally trying to kill your opponent.. not "play nice"

politics are involved in every facet of life.. awards etc.

Patriots were using intelligence gathering as far as i'm concerned .. so they are out to prove their proponents wrong .. by demolishing their opponents... i like that..

in a real fight .. well yes.. some sports are "real' fights no matter what ethics there are, that is very idealistic thinking .. sports imitates real life.. no matter what rules are involved and in real life you try to be fair and ethical and people by nature take advantage of the situation.. but that's for another discussion..

I rather like running a business with the mind set that "second place is the first to lose" and never be satisfied with a win.. there's alway's room for improvement.. alway's never be satisfied.. and for the record I was asked to take things in College.. there were those who did. and were stronger and recovered faster.. but while I wanted to .. i never did.. i was coached in... work hard, God, Family Team... not alway's in that order.. we went to lanai and picked pineapple all summer

and trained all summer ... then came back for 2 a day's

I am in no way a proponent for steroids in sports but rather the fact that athletes are manipulated (not talking of Bonds) into situations .. and then thown under the bus....

Ben johnson .. obvious [censored] teats as we call them...you just hate to see it happening on that level... it may be a chemical world .. but society definately has an influence on it..

[lanikai]

body builder died of lasix .. on stage i remember .. aldactone .. gives u full body cramps... but gets u to 2% body fat..

[The Mentalist]

body builder died of lasix .. on stage i remember .. aldactone .. gives u full body cramps... but gets u to 2% body fat..

Mohammed 'Momo' Benaziza back in 1992

He was on both Lasix and Aldactone. I think Lasix was by far the worst. It's a loop diuretic which causes potassium excretion as opposed to the mild Aldactone, which is potassium sparing. The Lasix caused his muscles to into shutdown because of lack of electrolytes and ultimately cause him to have heart failure.

[lanikai]

@lanikai: Most professional strength athletes don't understand what "moderate" means. That's the main problem.

Have you ever seen Andreas Munzer's last cycle? I think that's one of the saddest examples. Although also in Munzer's case it was the diurectics that killed him.

yes, as i mentioned there ws a national competition that my partner was entered in and a bodybuilder died from lasix . on stage.. 100 stregnth athletes were polled and asked if they took a pill that would enable them to win everything, but would take a great amount of years off their lives... almost all said they would

For winning .. or as i look at it for a Trophy.. i just thank God I got out of that mind set and am ok with myself .. just obsessed with other things now...oh like watches

[lanikai]

Mohammed 'Momo' Benaziza back in 1992

He was on both Lasix and Aldactone. I think Lasix was by far the worst. It's a loop diuretic which causes potassium excretion as opposed to the mild Aldactone, which is potassium sparing. The Lasix caused his muscles to into shutdown because of lack of electrolytes and ultimately cause him to have heart failure.

Yeah .. I know it ws an exotic name.. yup remembered that one .. those were the day's man... my buddy turned pro first lightwieght to get 1st place vote for overal in the USA . then he got his pro card.. then ahh ran into a little trouble with customs and ahhh perfume bottles that were not filled with perfume .. coming from France.. we are both in the same business now.. Rocky Johnson trained us.. his son is rather big time now... doing well .. good head on his shoulders.. that one.. Curtis Lefler.. gone too.. man i miss those guy's.. they were good people..

edit last:.. yes it was lasix.. i was talking of my experiences with aldactone

[ryyannon]

Since we're on the subject, are there any real HGH precursors available on the market? Of course, I don't mean the commercial junk you can find on the Internet, but a molecule that really does the job.

My own interesst is from the point of view of a guy who had always been in good shape, but who's currently turning the corner into the 'golden years' which mainly consist of spending far too much time in front of my computer screen with the associated problems of weight-gain around the mid-section and lack of muscle tonus.

Living in France as I do (where HGH is illegal) I could take the train to Brussels (where it's legal) once a month and procure pre-loaded hypodermics of the real stuff.

But that's already more exercise than I generally like to do, plus the fact that I've got some serious medical reasons to avoid taking HGH itself.

[The Mentalist]

You could give GABA (Gamma Amino Butyric Acid) a go. It has a proven effect in boosting natural GH levels by several hundred percent. I've used it with great success in the past and have noticed a noticeable drop in body fat and an increase in lean mass.