Panerai- Asian movement vs. the Swiss Movement

[894tom]

Ok...I am generally a newbie to this hobby (since May of last year when I bought my first rep) With that said, I have become addicted to this hobby as I always do whenever I take up a new hobby. I have researched, researched, then peed off my girl as I researched this hobby more on the internet I have four reps now , three of which are the 6497 movment the last being the Seagull movement. Heres what I came up with regarding the 6497 currently on the market. My opionion is only focusing on the current 6497 movment.

The Asian movment, right out of the box, kept the best time. It is a Panarai rep. I use it as my tool watch and have already accidentally dropped it twice. I found this case seems to scratch up quite nicely. The saphire chipped (very small) when it was introduced to the concrete. No problems with this watch after the two drops. The movment has been run alot and still keeps excellent time. I even took it in the shower with me many times....with no sign of leakage. It has the square cut crown wheel and rachet wheel. It does not have the swan neck movement. This movement winds very nicely. There are several models of this movement G, H, and so on. It has about a 53 hour power reserve. This was my first rep and (in hind sight) was me getting my feet wet in this hobby. To the untrained eye, the dial side is a pretty good rep. Of course the cannon pin problem is there and the "Swiss Made" is too close to the #6. Lume is not so good and the watch disappears completely into the dark after about 2 hours.

Next is my "Swiss" movment Panerai rep, right out of the box, kept good time. I baby this watch as it cost much more ($250 more) and was represented as genuine Swiss. I wore it many times and had to put the watch in the shop once. (A blow from my nephews BamBam plastic bag caused that ) It turned out the hairspring was the cause of the super fast watch. I noted the SS band supplied with the watch shows every scratch. I think a cotton ball scratches this metal. I am being sarcastic, but it does scratch very easily. As mentioned before, I spent alot of time researching this movement and found it is not Swiss at all. Just an Asian copy with a fancy crown wheel and rachet wheel, and a swans neck (non functional), and better Panerai markings on the movement because they are not crooked and are not painted on. The dial suffers from the same flaws as my cheap Panerai. I have not tested the water resistance of this watch (babied it) The lume is better on the hands. The hands are still visible in the morning but the dial almost disappearss completely by morning. This watch winds up with a [censored] off attitude and is very hard to wind. Kinda hurts to wind it. It has an approximate 58 hour power researve......yup 58 hours.

Next is my Davidsan. This is a Panerai homage with a genuine ETA 6497 movement. It has the best sounding movement and kept good time when new. I had to take it to the shop to have it tuned up after it "settled" down. So far so good...its only off about 2 seonds a day as best I can tell. Davidsans dials have excellent lume...real superluminova. The dials lume last clearly until morning as due the hands. The watch winds perfectly and does not bind up like my "Swiss" movement. You can really "feel" the quality of the movement. It has a 48 hour power researve and is very consistent with this wind down time(48hrs). The only markings on this movement are a stamped ETA 6497-1, Swiss, and 17 seventeen jewels. These are the real truth tellers. I found some of the older rep models used a real ETA movement but put bridge stickers over this movement to make it look like a Panerai movement so you may actually have a real ETA in the older models. This was discovered by peeling up the bridge sticker and reading swiss and 17 seventeen jewels. Some other rep makers try to slip you the ole rubber noodle by laser engraving ETA under the balance wheel and usually get away with this technique unless you have a loupe.

Ok.....so where is the fight you ask? Here goes. I will not pay for a "Swiss" movement again. This is just a hyped up way of getting extra money out of the customer. (See the fight now) I came to an apiffany a couple weeks ago. I am buying a replica watch. Obviously, I cannot expect a real ETA Swiss movement (I am guilty of being sucked into the marketing scheme remember so I am not trying to come across as better than thou).

Heres what you do if you have $350 - $550 bucks burning a whole in your pocket. Stop and consider this. Buy the cheap model...same case, same dial......Then purchase a real ETA movment and plot it in the case and you have a quality looking watch with a quality movement. Unless you have the exhibition back and still want the "Panerai" word on the back of the movement. This changes the game up. Remember your at the same price point with my suggestion, but won't have a real ETA movement. If you must have the Panerai marking on the movement in a futile attempt to convince the untrained eye the watch is a gen , go for it but keep in mind and make no mistake, you are not buying a "Swiss" gen ETA movement.....but a Swasian (no matter what the salesman tells you). Remember the quality is the same in reps, Asian or Swasian. Also keep in mind, the quality control will be the same on either the Asian or Swasian. You will have just as much success with the cheaper Asian movement and you can still pass it off to the untrained eye as gen if thats your game.

Face it.....the watch is a rep....don't try to pass it off as a gen, just enjoy it for what it is...an inexpensive, but nice mechanical watch that looks and works really good that should hold up for an extended period of time. When you are called on the carpet for whatever reason and finally tell the untrained eye or even the Gen owner how much you paid for the Asain, its not that crazy of an idea to them. They look at the quality of your rep and the untrained eye usually asks why anyone would pay $6000 bucks for the same watch they are now looking at. The Gen owners even discuss buying one to save their $6000 watch from damage by using their gen only on special occasions. Now you come across as being very clever and thrifty. When you tell them you paid $350 - $550 bucks for a fake....people kinda think your a stupid liar.

Happy New Year!!!! Hope I saved someone a couple bucks or at least talked someone into a wiser purchase.

[vaccum]

Asian 6497 100%

closer to gen and reliable

[FxrAndy]

I agree, but rather than buy a real eta i would get the asian serviced properly. I would always now go for the asian, i got a cheep 177 from TTK and am very impressed with it, ok it does not feel as good as some of the other movements when wound that i have particualy the older eta i have in my black seal with the stick on plates, but it has proved a very strong runner and keeps very good time,

[t]

we will talk again in some years - i am sure your opinion will be different

[Watchmeister]

If I read what tourby is saying correctly I am inclined to stick with the Swiss.

[894tom]

If I read what tourby is saying correctly I am inclined to stick with the Swiss.

Remember Tourby does not sell replica watches only German watches. A German watch will have German movements or sometimes they just use the real ETA movement or ETA debauche (this may not be fact or course). Perhaps this is a good time to ask Tourby exactly what kind of movement he will be using in his new Pilot watch. Asian, Swiss, German, or ETA? Just food for thought because Tourby has a Pilot watch coming out soon that I am considering buying.

Believe me, I am not knocking the Swasian movement or the Asian movementl for that matter because these are excellent movements that (straight out of the box) have performed as good my ETA movement in the short term. I have not had to take these to the shop yet to have them bought back into time. Seems like they settled very little or perhaps they just haven't gotten enough wrist time. I do believe I will be happier long term with my ETA movement and as stated initally, as I feel it is a better quality movement.

What I was saying and what FxrAndy elaborated on.....was that a basic serviced Asian model (not the Swasian model) is just as good as the Swasian (performance wise) but without the extra bucks you payed for a movement you believe is a real Swiss movement. This is basically the point of my entire initial post on this subject. Don't get suckered into paying for the Swiss in a rep model. Those who will agree with my opinion are probably going to be us/the consumers and watchsmiths. Those who disagree with my opinion will be the person who sells the Swasian model. Just a wierd suspicious on that matter

[t]

i will explain my opinion in few words

swiss - asian movements

- i have sold over 1000 watches with swiss 6497 and had only 2 defect watches

- i have sold only few watches with asian 6497 and had many refunds with defect watches (after few months of work)

swiss - asian case/parts

- please change the crown guard on a asian PAM rep case or the screws on lugs... you will see after few times the screws will no more fit

- please change the bezel or screws on my german made case... all will fit 100% after 50 times

you have bought 3-4 asian watches and are happy. Ok. That

[894tom]

but what is when it comes different and you have bad luck with your asia watch/movement?

I take it you put the Swasian movement in your timepieces. Thanks for the information. Sorry if I offended as I agree with you Tourby, the well service SwAsian movement is a very good movement.....but you just proved my point though on who gets all excited about this issue. I wonder how I guessed your responce before you gave it?

Edited January 2, 2008 by 894tom

[Pugwash]

I take it you put the Swasian movement in your timepieces.

I read it as he only uses Swiss movements now.

[t]

I read it as he only uses Swiss movements now.

i had use some time ago asian 6497 skeleton movements cause swiss skeleton 6497 aren

[894tom]

Tourby, I want to make absolute sure I understand what movement you use before I purchase your watch. ETA movement or Swiss movement?

[TomRiddle]

i bought a Swiss 111h base for like $185 I was gonna

a. give it as a gift during xmas

b. sell it

but im pretty much just holding on to it.. too much hassle to do both -.- and hey, it's Swiss how many swiss panny 111h's you got that you can get for $185

perfect base for me if the modding bug ever bites me but that's cmopletely unlikely considering my HBB and Pam082 rule my wrist

[t]

Tourby, I want to make absolute sure I understand what movement you use before I purchase your watch. ETA movement or Swiss movement?

ETA is swiss movement

all others (with or without ETA fake stamp) are asian

[ericw]

So, what type of movement is in the Davidsen Ultimate 111? Are you guys saying that the 6497s that are labeled ETA are swasian?

I ask becasue Im about to pay $400 for one...

[Pugwash]

Let's get one thing perfectly clear, no visible Panerai replica movements are 100% Swiss. The plates that say Panerai are obviously not of Swiss origin, for a start.

[t]

So, what type of movement is in the Davidsen Ultimate 111? Are you guys saying that the 6497s that are labeled ETA are swasian?

I ask becasue Im about to pay $400 for one...

this movement is the only one that

[894tom]

So, what type of movement is in the Davidsen Ultimate 111? Are you guys saying that the 6497s that are labeled ETA are swasian?

I ask becasue Im about to pay $400 for one...

Davidsen sells the well decorated Swasian (or as Tourby feels better calling it the Swiss 60 Asian 40) but Davidsen also sells genuine ETA. You have to ask for ETA specifically... if you say Swiss movement, you will get the movement that Tourby is refering to in his post (the post after your post).

Like I said in my first post on this topic, you will get a good (overpriced) movement with the Swasian movement that looks really good with the exhibition back....but if you think you are buying a 100%ETA you are not unless you ask specifically for 100%ETA. The ETA will look different from the Panerai Swiss so it is best to have the solid case back with the ETA.

My original post was basically to say that I think that you can save $ by sicking with the 100% Asian movment and service it well.....it is the same movement as the Swasian but without all the fancy stuff added. If you are gonna spend the $400, go with the solid back and put the real deal Hollifield in her...unless you like the Panerai bridges, Swan neck and so on. You will still get a good movement with the Swasian it will just be more money for basically the same movement....Remember I have the Swasian one and it looks works beautifully.

Edited January 3, 2008 by 894tom

[894tom]

ETA is swiss movement

all others (with or without ETA fake stamp) are asian

I know ETA is a swiss movement......and all others are Asian. You just verified what I said from the start of this post. In your next post you admit that the Swiss Panerai rep movement is a 60/40 combo. Your reply was not an answer to my question to you.

Put it like this.....

Will your Pilot watch have a genuine (100%) ETA 6497-1 movement? Yes or No?

[894tom]

Asians purchase the same base (ETA Unitas 6497-1) and overwork them with FAKE panerai decorations (panerai bridges, blue screws, swan neck, panerai engravings).

I would Love to hear from The Zigmeister or any other watchsmith on this claim. I bet you can't use anything but ETA parts on ETA watches and I bet you can't put ETA parts in these other movements that claim to be Swiss (or as I call them Swasian). What Tourby is saying is that all the Asian do to make a Swiss movment is buy the ETA movments and put on panerai bridges, blue screws, a swan neck, and some engravings. I think not from everything I have read on this matter (trust me...its alot . I am not a watchsmith though and cannot speak from that aspect of this craft.

Edited January 3, 2008 by 894tom

[t]

I know ETA is a swiss movement......and all others are Asian. You just verified what I said from the start of this post. In your next post you admit that the Swiss Panerai rep movement is a 60/40 combo. Your reply was not an answer to my question to you.

Put it like this.....

Will your Pilot watch have a genuine (100%) ETA 6497-1 movement? Yes or No?

genuine ETA 6497-1 - sure

and some limited 6498-1 with swan neck and hand engraved etc.

[894tom]

genuine ETA 6497-1 - sure

and some limited 6498-1 with swan neck and hand engraved etc.

Whew....like pulling teeth :yucky: . You're all right though....you gotta make your money I understand. Good luck with the build .

[t]

Whew....like pulling teeth :yucky: . You're all right though....you gotta make your money I understand. Good luck with the build .

do you prefer a asian movement?

sorry but can

[Pugwash]

I would Love to hear from The Zigmeister or any other watchsmith on this claim. I bet you can't use anything but ETA parts on ETA watches and I bet you can't put ETA parts in these other movements that claim to be Swiss (or as I call them Swasian). What Tourby is saying is that all the Asian do to make a Swiss movment is buy the ETA movments and put on panerai bridges, blue screws, a swan neck, and some engravings. I think not from everything I have read on this matter (trust me...its alot . I am not a watchsmith though and cannot speak from that aspect of this craft.

The Zigmeister has spoken on this subject a few times and has effectively confirmed what Tourby was saying. To make "Swiss Movement" Panerai replicas, you need to use Asian bridges and other parts. Why? Because Panerai make the bridges and Swan's Necks themselves and finish the movement with their own plates. These parts are not available from either ETA or Panerai, so the counterfeiters need to make them in China.

Why is this so unbelievable?

[Sweattdogg]

Either one when properly serviced will work great. Buy what you like better the money difference isn't that much.

[aeroflott]

Think I've lost the will to live reading this thread... :ohmy:

Mine is an issue of servicing my reps. Every watch guy I've tried won't touch the Asian movements, they'll gladly work on an ETA though, so they are my preference.