hambone Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Think I've lost the will to live reading this thread... :ohmy: Mine is an issue of servicing my reps. Every watch guy I've tried won't touch the Asian movements, they'll gladly work on an ETA though, so they are my preference. I second that. After reading this thread, I feel a movement of my own coming on.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mentalist Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Think I've lost the will to live reading this thread... :ohmy: Mine is an issue of servicing my reps. Every watch guy I've tried won't touch the Asian movements, they'll gladly work on an ETA though, so they are my preference. Tell 'em what you like, I doubt they'll know the difference. The Asian decorated 6497 movement is identical in virtually every way (at least on my 111e). Have a look on Paneristi and then compare the pic of the 111e with the rep and I tell you, it is identical in every way. Why spend more on a visually inaccurate 'Swiss' movement? If you service the Asian movement regualrly it should last and perform exactly as the Gen does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
894tom Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 The Zigmeister has spoken on this subject a few times and has effectively confirmed what Tourby was saying. To make "Swiss Movement" Panerai replicas, you need to use Asian bridges and other parts. Why? Because Panerai make the bridges and Swan's Necks themselves and finish the movement with their own plates. These parts are not available from either ETA or Panerai, so the counterfeiters need to make them in China. Why is this so unbelievable? Sir, you definetly don't understand my point this entire thread I guess. Both Tourby and I have agreed that the only true 100% Swiss movement is the ETA movement. All others movements in reps are Swasian or Asian rep mix. What I (and others) recommend is make one of two choices when buying a rep watch....save money and get the basic serviced Asian movement....or ask for the real ETA in your watch. Don't spend the extra money for the Swasian. The Swasian is just an Asian movement then called Swiss because of a couple Swiss parts added into the mix. Why pay more for this marketing scheme (the Swasian movement)? Thats my only point. A rep watch is a rep watch and will most likely contain (unless specifically asked for) a rep movement. The cheap Asian and the Swasian will both last just as long as each other because they are basically the same movement...and as myself and other members add...when something goes wrong with either the Asian or Swasian, you just can't get any parts for these movements but you sure as heck can do so with a gen 100%ETA. This concept seems so simple and clear to me but it is a hard hurdle to jump over when so much money is invested in buying and selling the Swasian movement. I have accepted this fact about my Swasian movement....and I am perfectly happy with it anyway....and you can be too. Remember I am not knocking the Swasian movement, its just as good as my Asian...and I am happy with that one also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babola Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 LOL! I think we should now call the Soprod decorated ETA 6497-2 mov't a SwiSwiss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Sir, you definetly don't understand my point this entire thread I guess. Both Tourby and I have agreed that the only true 100% Swiss movement is the ETA movement. All others movements in reps are Swasian or Asian rep mix. Please show me a picture of what you call a 100% Swiss ETA movement in a replica. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Please show me a picture of what you call a 100% Swiss ETA movement in a replica. I recon it is a fair bet that this one is a 100% swiss under those plates, older version black seal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I recon it is a fair bet that this one is a 100% swiss under those plates, older version black seal. 100% Swiss under those plates and not at all an accurate replica. The problem is that the only accurate replica Panerais with 100% Swiss movements are those with closed casebacks. I don't think this is the kind of movement he's talking about though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I agree not acurate with that movement and you can see that the plates are stuck on, i think the point of the whole topick is :- Is it worth paying for the swiss base plate and asian bridges ( that will need a service to give its best), when the asian baseplate and asian bridges will work just as well for less money and will also need a service to give its best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
894tom Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I agree not acurate with that movement and you can see that the plates are stuck on, i think the point of the whole topick is :- Is it worth paying for the swiss base plate and asian bridges ( that will need a service to give its best), when the asian baseplate and asian bridges will work just as well for less money and will also need a service to give its best. I just dont think some people will get the point Andy.....maybe if they read it one more time with an open mind....probably not though.....lol. I have said my point in about 5 different ways and still......cricket, cricket, echo, echo You hit the nail on the head Andy....again. By the way, thats the older style movement I was talking about earlier in this thead...great pic. I can bet there is an ETA stamp right under the balance wheel too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
894tom Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 100% Swiss under those plates and not at all an accurate replica. The problem is that the only accurate replica Panerais with 100% Swiss movements are those with closed casebacks. I don't think this is the kind of movement he's talking about though. This thread is not about purchasing an accurate replica. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I just dont think some people will get the point Andy.....maybe if they read it one more time with an open mind....probably not though.....lol. I have said my point in about 5 different ways and still......cricket, cricket, echo, echo You hit the nail on the head Andy....again. By the way, thats the older style movement I was talking about earlier in this thead...great pic. I can bet there is an ETA stamp right under the balance wheel too. Yep stamped up and with a kif style jewel retaining spring and nicely finished base plate, when you wind it you can feel it is a bit better than the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweattdogg Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 "Tell 'em what you like, I doubt they'll know the difference. The Asian decorated 6497 movement is identical in virtually every way (at least on my 111e). Have a look on Paneristi and then compare the pic of the 111e with the rep and I tell you, it is identical in every way. Why spend more on a visually inaccurate 'Swiss' movement? If you service the Asian movement regualrly it should last and perform exactly as the Gen does." I think what they are saying is that the parts are not interchangable for ETA and Chinese in many cases. Most watchmakers cannot order parts for the 100% asian movement that beats at 21k. I can also dispell that the movement in your 111e is identical to a gen 111e. Maybe in a picture, but the finish on the gen is 100x better than any rep I have ever seen. In the hands on any Risti the finish will be a dead giveaway. I agree the bridges, ingravings, beat, and shock protection are good, but no way the finish on the bridges is identical to gen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mentalist Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I think what they are saying is that the parts are not interchangable for ETA and Chinese in many cases. Most watchmakers cannot order parts for the 100% asian movement that beats at 21k. I can also dispell that the movement in your 111e is identical to a gen 111e. Maybe in a picture, but the finish on the gen is 100x better than any rep I have ever seen. In the hands on any Risti the finish will be a dead giveaway. I agree the bridges, ingravings, beat, and shock protection are good, but no way the finish on the bridges is identical to gen. What do you mean by 'finish'? Are you talking about something only a scanning electron microscope will pick up? The finish on mine is flawless, as good if not better than on some of the gens I've seen. I'll wager than an AD would have trouble calling out a good Asian rep movement without a loupe and a gen for comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweattdogg Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 An electron microscope or anyone from 3 feet away. An AD with a loupe not being able to tell the difference? I'm sorry, but I have to call this as BS. Anyone on this board can tell the difference with a half decent photo. No offense intended but you have never seen a real PAM movement if you think the finish on the new rep[ 111e compares to a gen. I don't care if you go on the risti site or not. If you don't believe me go post a pic of your watch on any GEN website and say your thinking about buying it. I'd give it 5 minutes before it is outted as fake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mentalist Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 An electron microscope or anyone from 3 feet away. An AD with a loupe not being able to tell the difference? I'm sorry, but I have to call this as BS. Anyone on this board can tell the difference with a half decent photo. No offense intended but you have never seen a real PAM movement if you think the finish on the new rep[ 111e compares to a gen. I don't care if you go on the risti site or not. If you don't believe me go post a pic of your watch on any GEN website and say your thinking about buying it. I'd give it 5 minutes before it is outted as fake. Ok, point something out that would give it away (based on the movement ONLY). Please don't say 'finish' as that is an all encompassing term that could mean anything. Give me specifics. I would love to see you see the movement inside my watch from three feet away. Now, that would be one helluva trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Please belive us when we say it would get spotted, the final "Finish" on a gen would be so much better, the engraving better and crisper, and even if it is one with an ETA base plate with a swans neck ect it will show not to be gen, if you can take a picture of your movement we can point out to you what we mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweattdogg Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) Finish meaning the engraving of the word "Panerai" over and over again on the bridges and surface of the bridges where "Panerai" is engraved on all Pre H Series movements. The gen has better deeper and shaper engraving. Not even close in the detail and quality. Go look at a pre-h preowned and get back to me. I think anyone who has seen a gen and the new rep will agree and no you don't have to hold them side to side. I'm not trying to make anyone mad. No the normal person on the street will not know the difference, but claiming an AD will need a loupe to call out your rep is probably the best laugh I've had today. Edited January 4, 2008 by Sweattdogg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mentalist Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Ok Mr X-Ray vision, talk me through it. Here's a pic of my 111e with a comparison shot of a Gen. I am refering to the e series not the h series with the cote de geneve as you mentioned. Please point out exactly what differs. They look identical to me. I have handled a Gen 111e shortly after I bought my rep and the movement looks identical and the bridge stamping looks identical also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Firstly yours is on the right and the jewel recess are not counter sunk at all and i bet the at the screw for the swans neck is too short for any more adjustment. Also the shean on the top plate does not look so satiny as the gen the polish on the back of the crown guard also tells Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweattdogg Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) It's not x-ray vision. And I'm not talking about the version with cote de geneve. Gen left yours right. As I said in my first post the finish and engraving is not the same quality even with the blurry photo. Of course if you put two blurry pics next to each other it will be hard to tell. If I blur a pic of my girlfriend enough she will look like Jennifer Aniston, but guess what she's no Jennifer Aniston Any pics that will show some extra detail? Anyone who knows on this board will be able to tell with a detailed pic. On a side note: You can also tell rep from the gap between the crown and crown guard. That being said you have yourself a nice watch, which out of the box will fool 99% of anyone you will probably ever meet. Bottom line swiss or asian I don't care, you will not be fooling any AD who knows their stuff. Edited January 4, 2008 by Sweattdogg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mentalist Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Firstly yours is on the right and the jewel recess are not counter sunk at all and i bet the at the screw for the swans neck is too short for any more adjustment. Also the shean on the top plate does not look so satiny as the gen the polish on the back of the crown guard also tells What is the 'jewel recess'? And what is 'countersinking' and what does it look like? The screw for the swans neck has about 1mm or more left on it. I'll take your word on the satiny top plate sheen as the lighting here is [censored] and the pic was taking with a cameraphone. Let's leave the crown guard out of it as I want to limit discussion purely to the movements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 If you look on the gen around the jewels are you will see i shiny circle where a 45 degree chamfer has been cut, also 1mm on your swans neck screw would not be enough to fully adjust the arm over to the minus side. by the way i always use my camera phone for shots like these Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mentalist Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 If you look on the gen around the jewels are you will see i shiny circle where a 45 degree chamfer has been cut, also 1mm on your swans neck screw would not be enough to fully adjust the arm over to the minus side. by the way i always use my camera phone for shots like these I see what you mean now about the chamfer on the jewel recess. On mine there is a chamfer, but it is shallower than on the gen but it is loupe stuff. The swan's neck screw is about 3 mm in total length. I have also noticed that the sunburst on the larger winding gear does not extend all the way to the teeth. It stops about 1mm short of the teeth. Here's a slightly better pic with increased resolution: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 A quick difference my daughter just picked up was the different size of the pinion on the center wheel, and she is only 8! Cancel that on the new photos they look the same! I will tell her to think about light levels next time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mentalist Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) A quick difference my daughter just picked up was the different size of the pinion on the center wheel, and she is only 8! Lol, you beat me to it Edited January 4, 2008 by The Mentalist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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