Watchmeister Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I recently picked up the wonderful big book on vintage Panerai and then got curious about how many vintage Angelus movement PAM's were ever made. Here is my math so far. Can anyone fill in the holes? Am I missing any others. Total Number of SF 240 movements made: 350 Number Panerai Actually Got @ 90% : 315 Less 203 and reserves for 203: 200 Total number of possible Angelus based Panerai watches: 115 Big Egizano 30 3646 3646 Transitional ??? 2533 ??? 615XXX ??? Here are some interesting facts that I never knew before reading the book: Angelus based Panerai had nothing to do with WWII. The SF 240 movements were not even produced until 1956. As a result I believe many of the pieces in existence today were renovations and upgrades of existing Rolex 618 pieces. When watches were renovated they often replaced the Radium dials with less toxic ones, changed wire lugs into permanent lugs, etc. By the way, for anyone who can afford it and is interested I highly recommend the book. I do hope some of the folks who are far more knowledgeable than I will pipe in here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topota Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I'm not an expert by any means, also have the book. There's many knowledge gaps that are now open, even the authors acknowledge that record keeping of these military instruments was minimal. Also very surprised to learn that only the 3646 saw action during WWII! The book implies that the Angelus models were produced as an improvement to the 618s and as Panerai was still supplying the MM this leads me to believe that there was actually a # that was produced. Could it be possible that some of these watches were just upgrades? It is possible that they were only with a new caseback/caseback engraving produced. The real interesting schism that is not noted in the book is what appears to be a break with Rolex, which would lead to the use Angelus movements and ultimately to the Panerai produced cases. Was this the main reason Panerai stopped producing watches from the late 60's till the 1990s? The 6152/1 without crown protector device were definitely produced from one block of steel. Highly recommend the book, great learning and opens up many great questions too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmStaFF Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 thank you Kruzer very informative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted May 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 My pleasure. I am hoping the experts will chime in over time and fill in the voluminous gaps. I hadn't thought about the Rolex "schism". It does make sense. When Panerai sold to the Nazi's Rolex did not want it's name on it so perhaps Angelus was their only choice until they moved on to ETA's in the 90's. My assumption has always been that the 3646's and 2533 were all retrofits of existing watches. I have never figured out about the 615X's though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
projectologist Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 There probably is a stack of ledgers filled with PO's sitting in a warehouse somewhere that will answer many questions. It's interesting how much mystery still exists relating to Panerai's early history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topota Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 No, Rolex and Panerai had a relationship way past the war, just don't know when the break happened. The Angelus was an improvement because it only had to be wound once every eight days and this reduced the wear to the crown on these instruments. My guess is that after the war Rolex just became more focused on the consumer market, abandoning the dwindling Military business. The 615X are all IMO a Panerai attempt to retain and grow their instrument business thru innovation (no retrofits). It seems that in the long run this was not sustainable. My pleasure. I am hoping the experts will chime in over time and fill in the voluminous gaps. I hadn't thought about the Rolex "schism". It does make sense. When Panerai sold to the Nazi's Rolex did not want it's name on it so perhaps Angelus was their only choice until they moved on to ETA's in the 90's. My assumption has always been that the 3646's and 2533 were all retrofits of existing watches. I have never figured out about the 615X's though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted May 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 So all 6152 Angelus were made as new post 1960? When were the 6152's first made (with 618's)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topota Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 6152 with 618 were first made in 1950 6152/1 with crown protector and 618 first made in 1954 6152 variants with Angelus mvmt from 1956 onwards So all 6152 Angelus were made as new post 1960? When were the 6152's first made (with 618's)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topota Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Quick clarification, the 2533 was the original proto for the 3646 dated around 1936. This proto used a Rolex cushion shaped PW with attached sodered lugs. According to serial #s there could be as many as four of these left with two known examples. The Kampschwimer watches were for the most part devoid of markings (although many had the Rolex engraving in the caseback) not so much because Rolex didn't want their markings on these, but mostly as a request of the Kampschwimers who didn't want their equipment identified by the enemy. Panerai didn't start using Angelus movements in their watches until 1956. My pleasure. I am hoping the experts will chime in over time and fill in the voluminous gaps. I hadn't thought about the Rolex "schism". It does make sense. When Panerai sold to the Nazi's Rolex did not want it's name on it so perhaps Angelus was their only choice until they moved on to ETA's in the 90's. My assumption has always been that the 3646's and 2533 were all retrofits of existing watches. I have never figured out about the 615X's though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP5 Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Quick clarification, the 2533 was the original proto for the 3646 dated around 1936. This proto used a Rolex cushion shaped PW with attached sodered lugs. According to serial #s there could be as many as four of these left with two known examples. The Kampschwimer watches were for the most part devoid of markings (although many had the Rolex engraving in the caseback) not so much because Rolex didn't want their markings on these, but mostly as a request of the Kampschwimers who didn't want their equipment identified by the enemy. Panerai didn't start using Angelus movements in their watches until 1956. So there are four unaccounted for somewhere out in the world? I have a dream of going to a huge dusty swap meet and finding one in the bottom ogf a box of watches- I will offer $20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolli Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 agreed......is correct what he said. rolli Quick clarification, the 2533 was the original proto for the 3646 dated around 1936. This proto used a Rolex cushion shaped PW with attached sodered lugs. According to serial #s there could be as many as four of these left with two known examples. The Kampschwimer watches were for the most part devoid of markings (although many had the Rolex engraving in the caseback) not so much because Rolex didn't want their markings on these, but mostly as a request of the Kampschwimers who didn't want their equipment identified by the enemy. Panerai didn't start using Angelus movements in their watches until 1956. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted June 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Much thanks for all the information. So there were 4 or so 2533's. Two other questions for the vintage experts. Any ideas on the numbers of the other models made above? Also I was reading about a weird coating on the case (but not the bezel) of the transitional 3646 where they replaced the 618 with a 240 and added the solid lugs? It got its own little section in the big book. I think it was the same coating as the big Egi. Any guesses what it was? I would love to make one of those one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docblackrock Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Kruzer, just wondering is this the German-printed 'Vintage Panerai' book? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messenius Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Fascinating info. Perhaps one day I'll have one on my wrist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted June 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Kruzer, just wondering is this the German-printed 'Vintage Panerai' book? Doc- It is. I finally couldn't resist. I have been interested in a couple of projects and concluded that the book was a must read. Actually the pictures are worth a thousand words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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