JohnG

Why?

It is entirely possible to distinguish, in one's own heart, between two "wrongs" - the one being diluting a watch manufacturer's profits and brand image and the other being coercing defenseless children into working for little or no money in subhuman conditions. Many people don't have any problem making that distinction and making it does not make them a hypocrite. It is a reflection of one's priorities.

I have to strongly disagree here. The NYT like all media organizations is run by human beings whose interests, beliefs, and politics must necessarily affect editorial decisions. They choose to publish certain articles over others based not only on relevance or importance but on politics as well - all of the media does it because total objectivity is an absolute impossibility. That said, it would be wrong to extrapolate from there that they have a disdain for the truth and fabricate content in order to manipulate their audience (that is what propaganda does). The staff at the NYT, as human beings, are of course imperfect, but they are also among the most serious, sincere, and honest journalists in the world. China is a hot topic in the media because it is the new global economic powerhouse, is poised to someday eclipse the United States, and because its staggering transformation in the last decade necessarily creates conditions and phenomena that are immensely topical. At some level do resentment, fear, or jealousy motivate and/or create demand for many articles about adverse conditions in China? Undoubtedly. Does that mean they rise to the level of propaganda? Absolutely not. I also want to make a point that has already been made before: even if it is true that the assembly of these watches occurs in non-traditional "factory" conditions such as in homes or small workshops, somewhere the parts are being produced in large scale machine shops that employ equipment lacking in many if not all of the most basic safety features mandated by law in the United States and other developed nations. I recently read a blog written by a young Asian-American female doctor who has been working in China and the number of work-related injuries, amputations, and maimings (due mostly to unsafe equipment) is staggering. As I have said repeatedly, like others I will not shun reps until I see specific evidence of child slavery being employed by those that manufacture them. But neither will I try to whitewash, minimize, or write off as media propaganda what is going on in many areas of China. This is not a judgment on China's culture because what is happening there has little to do with culture and everything to do with rapid industrialization. Approximately one hundred years ago when the United States was undergoing a similar transformation from an agrarian economy to a a manufacturing economy, all of the same conditions and abuses were seen and it is certainly accurate to say that worker exploitation is far from dead in America.

Really? I didn't know there had been any - if you can document that I would be really appreciative (or I will google it tomorrow). I don't have a huge moral dilemma with stepping on Rolex's trademark (Rolex is the man and it is good to step on the man), but I don't like having to admit that I am consciously avoiding thinking about what really happens in those factories...

I guess I could be a bit more honest. In all truth, I would rather not try to build a visual image of the inside of the factory where my SSD is manufactured - or what goes on there. When I try to conjure an arguably realistic picture in my head, it is quite ugly.

Until someone shows me evidence that eddhead's speculation is more than just that - speculation, I plan on doing nothing. I don't pretend that I am proud but I am not going to dance all around with rationalizations trying to explain away eddhead's fears and legitimate concerns or try to turn this into a referendum on the western media.

So I take it you will be returning your 3717 and not buying any more reps? I am not being sarcastic - I assume from your comment that that is the case.

Ken I don't think you have to take that broad of a view in order to arrive at the conclusion, as eddhead does, (reasonably I believe) that factories that manufacture illegal goods are subject no virtually none of the external controls that have already been referred to, and as such are at much higher risk for using slave labor. I agree with this analysis but am simply unwilling to alter my behavior based on a supposition, no matter how logical it is. A subtle point but one worth making I think.

That is exactly what has happened. And you suggest the same happens anywhere there is rapid industrialization and in the late 19th century and early 20th century the United States was no different. Ironically, communism was in large part a response to precisely this kind of exploitation. That said, until I have real evidence that actual slavery is occurring in the factories that manufacture rep watches I will likely not stop collecting reps. In order to do so and be consistent I would have to cease purchasing a whole host of products and spend more time researching buying decisions than I am willing to. I will not knowingly buy from anyone who uses slave labor. But the issue of child labor specifically and worker exploitation in generally and their cumulative impact on social development at the macroeconomic level is extremely complex and I do not have a blanket policy of not buying from anyone who uses child labor or provides substandard conditions for workers.

Uh I don't know... this is a forum dedicated to watches largely manufactured in CHINA? You mean stories written by a media that never "points out the absolute FACT that children and adults in so-called civilised nations such as the UK, in Europe, and the USA are kidnapped and sold into forced labour every day of the week"? Let's see, I never read Chinese newspapers - I read the IHT and the Economist and I have seen plenty of such stories - but wait, that can't be! The western press never talks about slave traffic in the Occident! I must be lying! Because an article about child labor in China does not also discuss child labor in L.A. or London does not make it unbalanced. I will give you the simple truth as to why that article does not discuss child labor and the slave traffic in the west.... Because it IS NOT ABOUT CHILD LABOR AND SLAVE TRAFFIC IN THE WEST. Look, if you don't want to stop buying reps on the chance that there might be abuses in one or more of the factories that manufacture them, just be a man and say so. The whole media thing tirade is a red herring.

Wow. Maybe it would have no influence at all. Maybe the OP just wants to minimize the probability that he is part of the problem. I don't know. But what amazes ME is that someone would make a personal attack on him, calling him naive and incapable of thinking for himself (i.e. stupid), for no other reason than that he is moved by his own personal conscience to post this article. I may not alter my buying decisions right now based on this article. But neither will I attack someone whose biggest sin seems to be caring about children and trying to raise awareness because his points make me uncomfortable. I would rather man up and say I may still buy reps. It's a whole lot more honest.

Just to clarify - this thread was not about ME filing a chargeback if that is what you mean. And I don't think it is the way to deal with a slow delivery or any other problem than exactly the one I described where I would use it - if a dealer has my money and REFUSES to ship. I have not bought any reps (other than the one that I am waiting for now) but I have bought over 100 items on eBay from sellers on four continents and over a dozen countries. I have never so much as looked at the dispute page on PP and wouldn't know where to begin. I have chosen my sellers carefully and I did the same before ordering a watch. I knew before I ordered my first rep what to expect and am not chomping at the bit or impatient (anxious to get it yes). A chargeback should be the solution of last resort but I understand what motivates many of those who initiate them prematurely AND I think that the dealers themselves could help avoid a lot of these situations. That, in a nutshell, is what I think about the whole thing. Have we beat it to death yet or is the thread still moving?

I don't see the need to get personal but that's of course is entirely up to you. So let's condense it even more. This thread was originally about a possible chargeback and a frozen account due (presumably) to previous chargebacks that made the account "at risk." You seem to say the Chinese dealer is the way he is and it is unreasonable to hope for him or her to adapt to client expectations (if this is an inaccurate characterization of your comments I am sure you will correct me). But I am also pretty sure that many western clients are "idiots" (I prefer a different characterization for people who become scared when they are ignored after having paid what to them might be a fair sum of money, but we will use your term) and will continue to do chargebacks when they get jittery because a dealer is non-responsive. It is just as true to say that that is just the way it is and it is unreasonable (or at least unrealistic) to expect change. And in fact, just as we have to accept the dealer on his terms, does he have any choice but to accept this unfortunate reality? My suggestions came from no other desire than to see an improvement in relations between the dealer and the client that would address the root of this problem - the fear, frustration, anger, or ignorance that causes the majority of these chargebacks. Maybe my ideas are not the best or maybe they are in fact unrealistic as has been suggested. But for the life of me I can't figure out why they seem to cause so much tension and hostility.

I agree absolutely but it seems this is a very unpopular view around here. It is hard to imagine a less controversial subject but somehow even this one gets people tense if you express a view that diverges from the majority opinion. JuanG

Wow. THAT was an offensive post?

I sure don't and I don't know anyone who does. But I expect a watch that functions and whose hands don't fall off and that doesn't have stripped link screws. For 250 bucks, I should be able to expect that CONSISTENTLY. In one thread people complain of "cartels" and exaggerated rep prices and now in this thread they are not making any money at all. Which is it? In any event, I don't think we are talking about mods here - just QC. And good QC saves money for the seller. That is a fact taught in every Operations Management 101 class today. Of course there is an optimal level of QC - too much is not justified in a cost/benefit analysis. But I think it is safe to say the optimal level is somewhere above where it stands currently with most dealers. Absolutely. And dealing with [censored] off or merely disappointed customers, handling repairs, replacing watches, etc., losing some customers, all add to the cost of doing business. Yes and so it will remain so long as no one is even willing to TRY something new. The dealers sure aren't going to be motivated if their own customers think asking for something a little different isn't even worth the keystrokes it would require. There is no doubt. How much I don't know but every time a watch is DOA or losing or gaining a lot of time or has some other serious problem that could have been detected before the watch left the dealer's hands, they have to deal with it. Their time is worth money and customer good will is priceless. So do the serious QC issues that I see listed here so often cost the dealer money? Of course they do.

Maybe not. Dealers may not realize that it might be cheaper to improve quality control than to deal with all the returns they get - and the increased quality would attract additional customers. I think what is largely lacking is an education in customer service and quality control that many people from developed countries take for granted. We can grasp immediately that the way to attract customers is to improve quality, service, and communication. Some sellers have already demonstrated a desire to keep their customers happy - and they are the ones that generally are used by the members of the various forums. Those same sellers might be receptive to improving their business by more direct interaction and feedback from customers. I have already suggested in another thread that the dealer who starts a thread here entitled "How can I improve my business?" will receive a lot of valuable insight. If he or she implements the most reasonable and practicable of those suggestions they will likely increase their volume and reduce lost time and money associated with returns, dissatisfied customers, etc. Maybe we should suggest to them that they participate in a "workshop." If successful it could become a subforum. It seems win/win to me.

I don't need to get anything straight. I am not going to apologize for being ignorant or mistaken about the banned or controversial members that I am accused of being a sock for. You can just forget that fantasy right now.

Jesus Christ will people stop with that stuff. I have been accused of being Fakey over at RWG and someone else (I didn't know the member - somebody who is gone now). I understand TTK disappeared and stole a bunch of money from members on one or more forums. I will say the same thing I said at RWG when someone said they were claiming their "5 bucks": if it is proven that I am a sock for ANYONE, I will pay 5 THOUSAND bucks to the person who "outs" me. Of course, if I were TTK I guess that wouldn't be much of a promise but there it is. There is entirely too much 5th grader bullsh_t going on in these forums and as a result everyone is trying to guess who half the new members are. I have never participated in any of that crap so I don't appreciate being dragged into it. And by the way, there is nothing wrong with my logic regarding customer service, even if it was also espoused by someone who (ironically) seems to have ripped a bunch of people off... I am sure that it would be easy to have a mod confirm if my IP is really in Spain but if you did that then you couldn't run around telling others I am TTK. You believe whatever you need to believe.

As to patience, which is mentioned frequently, I ordered and paid for a SSD from Ruby over a week ago. She has not sent me pics yet (which she usually does prior to sending the item), much less actually shipped it yet. I understand that I must be patient and that that is the price I pay if I want other benefits that come from dealing with her. I also understand that she has a regular job and is not as responsive as some other dealers. I accept all of that. But there is nothing wrong with pointing out an OBVIOUS AND UNDENIABLE FACT: All of the dealers without exception have a tremendous amount of room for improvement. If we say these things out loud, clearly and without bitterness or rancor, perhaps that special guy (or gal) will come along, read our comments, and do something really amazing.

I would chalk it up to the fact that capitalism is still in its extreme infancy in China. Sooner or later a dealer will come along who will do much as I have suggested and there will be a real shakeout. Maybe, maybe not. I think these guys waste a lot of their own time and money fixing problems that could have been avoided. QC is a area where the extra time spent would be more than offset by a reduction in returned items and lost customers. They would not necessarily have to raise prices to offer better QC. The Japanese produce superior cars at lower cost on U.S. soil using American workers because QC is their holy grail (it is true their plants, the last time I checked, are not unionized, but the workers accept that because they are generally dealt with fairly). The reduction in warranty administration and myriad other related costs more than offset the cost of "getting it right the first time." That is why Japanese auto manufacturers are 3 times more profitable than the big 3 American manufacturers. Agreed. Not easy but largely possible. I am not talking about the unreasonable customer - I am speaking of reasonable people with reasonable demands or expectations that must adapt themselves to the dealer and not the other way around. Seriously, would anybody here argue that a dealer who starts a thread entitled, "How can I improve my business?" is not going to benefit enormously? Few business people have such an intimate and immediate link to their customers as is afforded by these forums. Don't you think such a simple thing would help them as much as us? If Watchmark started such a thread, would not the feedback be MASSIVE and invaluable?

So what? How does the subject of your trade being illegal prevent you from answering emails within 24 hours? It DOES NOT. How does it prevent you from QCing your product better? How does it prevent your from holding inventory and shipping immediately? How does it prevent you from giving customers precise and realistic expectations of shipping times and possible delays? How does it prevent you from doing everything I have suggested? I know that dealer doesn't exist but the day one appears, he is going to rain fire on the competition (or those that don't wake up). I don't advocate immediate or frivolous chargebacks. But if a dealer receives my payment and refuses to ship you bet your ass I will chargeback. Watchmark has offered to do exactly what he should - namely ship an item that has been paid for. A dealer should not put the burden of his own problems on the customer. He should assume those burdens without complaint. When someone starts acting the way I have suggested, watch how his business flourishes while the others wither. I disagree. If I am a U.S. company and I want to do business (and be successful) in China I must learn their customs and expectations. I cannot expect them to conform to my own habits and standards of what is acceptable. Or perhaps I can but I won't be that successful. Why is it any different here? They guys market and sell their products IN ENGLISH to a largely western client base. If chargebacks are common enough to cause them problems it is not because their customers are idiots its because they are not doing their job. I have read ALL of the major dealers' shipping and warranty statements. NOWHERE has anyone stated that because the products are shipped from China delays may be expected. No one has stated that EMS tracking information is often poor/delayed (EDIT - Josh does actually state this but he and others fail to note that the delivery times listed on their sites are often grossly incorrect). Nowhere has anyone said whether they QC their watches (except Eurotimez who is not in fact a Chinese dealer). Only Ruby and Andrew specifically mention warranty. Only Ruby specifically states, without ambiguity, what will happen if customs seizes your watch (it will be replaced at her cost). No one states whether the item is kept in stock and if so the time frame for shipping the watch (should be 24 hour processing once payment received). I have not chosen the wrong hobby because I don't choose my hobby based on dealers who service that hobby. I have chosen a hobby and it just so happens that the dealer service is below par by western standards. I accept that. I am patient. But what I won't do is heap praise on any dealer who does the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM of what he should do (ship the item and stand behind it). That is all it takes to earn accolades in the forums - not cheat your customers. If you don't lie and actually ship the item and fix it when it breaks within a relatively short period of time, you are a "great" dealer. Well I won't say that. I will say they are honest people who are so-so as dealers and there is nothing else out there so I will accept that. But I will speak my mind and if dealers want to stop having problems with chargebacks they could start by looking in the mirror instead of blaming their own customers. How many times have we seen someone jump the gun on a chargeback because the dealer doesn't answer and email for three, four, five days? Those chargebacks could be avoided by simply answering emails and calming anxious or nervous customers. But no, they ignore pleas for information or reassurance or simple answers and then, when they get a chargeback, THE CUSTOMER is the "idiot." Well I call a dealer in that situation the "idiot" because he is the one who suffers. Because he was too lazy to answer an email promptly. Holding a customer's hand is part and parcel of good service and communication. Don't do it and you will have a certain number of chargebacks and PP disputes. That is a simple and unavoidable truth. And that is just ONE of the many ways avoidable problems occur almost daily. Customers should not have to come to these forums to get answers to questions that they have been waiting three days for from the person they have already sent money to - come on! I don't know why I have to defend such obvious facts. It is one thing to say "Juan, this is what there is, not much we can do" - it is quite another to praise a dealer as being "great" when in fact that is simply not true. Some may be "ok" AT BEST - but there is not one single dealer around that I would call outstanding. If the dealers like Watchmark want to improve their service they have but to read these forums. The complaints and fears and nervous questions "is this normal?" or "how long should this take?" come in all the time and veterans are the ones doing the hand-holding. Any dealer could come in here and learn as much about what their customers want and expect as I have learned about the reps they sell. Why doesn't any dealer ever start a thread entitled, "how can I improve my service?" "What can I do better?" The first guy who does that and listens and implements all reasonable and practicable suggestions will RULE this trade.

Comprehensive review of a really outstanding watch (gen and rep). It is on my buy list because of this review.

I read it - that's why this rep is on my buy list. But thanks fot the link because I reread it.