automatico

quote =

Another recurrent mith, is the one about reps in solid gold,not plated.

Are they just a hoax , a rare piece ,or is there an "underground" market for this kinds of products?

Maybe, they are only available in the back room of some shops in Thailand, for people in the know, as the intenet buyer is not avaiable to spend a large amount of money for this high-end reps that he can't actually see and touch.

What do you think?

/quote

I have seen solid gold replicas for over 20 years and owned a solid 18K Daytona with a swiss val/eta 7753 10 years ago. I paid $2500 for it.

An internet gold and diamond company called 'Apples of Gold' sold the exact same watch under the 'Geveve' brand a few years later for about the same price.

A traveling gold and diamond dealer used to sell solid 18k rolex president replicas with eta 2836 for $2200 to $3000 (depending on the dial and bezel) in the late 1990s. A tutone DJ was $750.

This is where the 18k Daytona replica came from.

I worked on a solid 18k submariner replica with oyster bracelet a few years ago with an eta 2824 in it and still have a new solid 18k replica unsigned 'president' case that I bought in 1999. The catch on this particular case is the case opening is too big and a 27.9mm rolex DJ dial falls through the front of the case.

(rolex spec cases do not have this problem, this case was made for an oversize pave diamond dial)

When gold was less than $400/troz the watches and cases were more or less affordable but when gold went up over $1000/troz, prices shot up and never came down.

Before gold prices went crazy, a solid 18k Italy made DJ case and bezel for a 3135 was $925, and a submariner case was $1225. Now the cases are over $2000 and the bracelets are about the same price, so it would be over $4k with no running gear.

Since many of the replicas advertised as having 'solid gold' bezels and center links do not have solid gold (imagine that!)...the easiest way to have a watch with solid gold is probably to buy a replica tutone DJ that will accept a genuine spec crystal and bezel, buy a bezel and tutone bracelet with solid center links from eBay etc and make one up.

I made a tutone lady DJ up for my wife to beat to death and the total cost was about $600...it sure beats $5k for a genuine. She already killed a genuine tutone lady DJ so I bought her a new tutone no date lady oyster perpetual...she would not wear it but wore the replica for a while. (??) Figure that one out.

Now she wears a Citizen eco-rive with a diamond bezel. (I have a spare just in case)

No date = less stuff to break or wear out and less hassle to set when it runs down every few days from not being worn.

Even with a quick set you have to run the hands around to see if it is on am or pm and after a while the canon pinion wears to where the hands will not move with the watch running.

"So the question is....will the global financial crisis have impact on the rep-prices????"

(Imho of course...)

My guess is yes. Less demand = lower prices.

"I allready saw some dealers offering their watches for discounted prices and some of the dealers are ready to negotiate prices....is the era of highly priced 500-800$ reps history for now????"

Maybe, but I doubt it.

Hardcore replica RWG etc guys will still buy a high end rep now and then, just not as many as in the past. I think watches like the 'euromariner' etc are probably about as good as you can get no matter the price.

Ripoff sites will continue to sell them for $1200 to suckers, but probably not as many as before.

'One off' custom made watches with totally fake "genuine" cases/dials etc using genuine movements will still sell at nose bleed prices as before.

As some RWG members move toward working on watches, their interest in high end 100% replicas may decline as they shift to homemade frankenwatches.

"Will we see new reps with decreased prices?"

Maybe for a while, then back to slowly rising prices as usual...as long as they will sell at the higher prices. If not, they may cut production to raise demand.

Prices will always rise with a rise in demand but right now I would say demand is down quite a bit.

Many people with plenty $$ are cutting back too because they do not know what lies ahead.

Meanwhile, used genuine watch prices at the "watch trader" level have fallen a lot. I bought a super nice TAG WN1111 with full size bracelet for $150 a couple weeks ago. (a lot of 'trader watches' have short bracelets)

It was a good buy at $150 because a similar high quality 'swiss quartz' TAG replica will cost around $100 plus shipping/customs hassles.

I also got a genuine 17013 rolex OQDJ with 13 links (I mentioned it in an earlier post) for a total cost of $1275...another pretty good deal.

In today's financial climate, you can pick up genuine watches now and then for not much more than a high end replica.

quote name =

can someone point me in the right direction on where to get stems for eta movements?

/quote

Any parts supply house will have them. The common eta 2824 stem is tap 10, threaded.

Later genuine eta 2824 etc stems will have a hub that rides against the movement plate (in winding position) to take pressure off the pilot and load bearing area just behind the pilot when spring loaded screw down crowns are used.

(pilot = the point on the end)

It is probably a good idea to use this type of stem if possible with screw down crowns. Some oem and generic replacements do not have the hub.

quote =

Why some big wall clock`s have quarts movement with perfectly sweeping second hand, probably better and more expensive movement?! And why it is not possible use that sweeping technique in wrist watch movements.

/quote

I have used a lot of the 'smooth sweep' quartz movements to replace corded electric clock movements. The 'smooth sweep' quartz clock movements I use have "Young Town Quartz, Made in Taiwan" on the back and sell for around $6US each.

They use one AA battery and will run for 1 1/2 to 2 years on a battery.

The main reason for not using step motors that tick 4 or 5 times a second is battery life...every tick takes about the same amount of battery power so five ticks a second would take a lot more power than one a second.

Some two hand (no second hand) quartz watches tick 3 times a minute to save power.

quote =

I stopped bidding at the genuine crystal at 500 usd .. a clarks will do for now.. it is the correct size mag and closer to the edge of the plastic crystal and also wider as the OEM..

/quote

I am ordering a few parts today and will include some generic 116 crystals on the order so if you want to try one...let me know. I am in the USA but can send one just about anywhere.

I have a couple genuine 116 rolex crystals and do not use them on projects but they only cost about $25 or $30 when I bought them from rolex/Dallas a few years ago so there is no way one is worth much over $50US. I only have two left so I better hang on to them as I still have a genuine 1675 and a friend has a 1655.

Since they are in sealed plastic bags, I do not want to open one to measure it but iirc the generics I have been getting are very close.

I have a 1655 replica from 'Paul' 3 or 4 years ago with a non adjustable 24 hour hand (eta 2836) and a generic rolex 16 generic was too loose on the case and in the bezel so I ended up using a generic 127 (for 1680) and sanded the sidewall off a little to lower the crystal. (hand stack from dial up...24h, h, m)

The bezel slipped over the 116 crystal with hardly any friction at all but it was fairly tight on the 127, but not tight as a genuine watch so I lightly glued the bezel to the crystal and case with 2 part waterproof epoxy to help hold it a little better.

I just now measured the 'Paul' 1655 case between 8 and 19 on the 24 hour bezel and the case is about 38mm in diameter. The bezel od is 37.4mm and the crystal is 30.30 where the sidewall rises above the bezel. (there is about 1mm of sidewall rising above the bezel)

The generic 127 od is 30.30mm, id is 28.15mm, and the sidwwall is 1.05mm thick. The crystal is about 5.5mm tall from base to top.

The generic 116 od is 30.25mm, id is 29.0mm, and the sidewall is .65mm thick. The crystal is 5.5mm tall.

note: the measurements are pretty close, within a few hundredths mm, measured with a Mitutoyo digital caliper. Every time you measure a plastic crystal you get a different figure but this is pretty close. You must also allow for the squared off jaws when measuring the rounded thickness of crystals.

The case is 13.9mm thick with the lowered 127 crystal.

There is no serial number on the case and only 'stainless steel' at 6 o'clock and 'registered design' and '1655' at 12 o'clock. The caseback is polished and slightly domed like the genuine watch.

I posted a comparison between this same case and a genuine 1655 case a few years ago on TRC but I do not know if it is still up or not. It was in a 1655 discussion somewhere.

quote =

i consider a true franken gen dial, crown, bezel, clasp. not sure where a gen movement would put it.

/quote

I recently made up a 'frankenstein' rolex 1016 using a genuine 16204 case with bored out lugs, smooth aftermarket bezel cut to fit a GS PA464-64C crystal (same type as rolex 22 flat top), 26 jewel hack rolex 1520, Asian dial made to fit the rolex movement, and aftmkt hands.

A genuine dial would be nice of course, but I do not have a good used 1016 dial and did not want to waste a pricey nos dial on a project watch.

The watch is on a black padded leather strap with a signed .925 silver buckle.

Imho, even if it is 90% rolex...it is still a 100% 'frankenstein' watch. It's just a collection of parts, some genuine, some not, and none correct for a proper 1016 rolex.

I believe in order for any watch to qualify as 'franken', it needs to have a few genuine parts. What the genuine parts should be is of course, up for debate.

Otoh, a 'frankenrep' made from mixed 100% replica parts is still a 100% replica, maybe pushed into the 'fantasy replica' realm if no similar genuine watch exists.

No matter what...they are cool!

I just hope none are sold as genuine.

I also believe if they are not always worn by/owned by a 'replicaguy', the watch should be disassembled if there is any chance it could be sold as genuine.

quote =

I personally think that the lack of ETA movements for high end reps will sooner or later make a cloned 31xx series a reality. The main hesitation is more likely to be the threat of legal action by Rolex who hit the roof the day a cloned movement appears.

/quote

I believe it would be relatively easy to clone a 3135 or 1570 rolex (no harder than cloning an eta 2824, 2892, 7750 etc) and one thing about it is that they would all be hidden under the caseback. As long as the movement looks more or less correct when the caseback is removed, they could take shortcuts in other places like flat hairsprings in place of breguet hs etc. They would need to keep dial foot position, hand sizes, date offset, and overall movement size same as rolex to allow the clone to work with genuine spec cases, dials, hands etc.

Seeing that rolex can not do much about replica watches with "rolex" written in plain sight on the dials...I doubt they could do much about cloned movements hidden inside the watch.

Would buyers pay an additional $100 above the price of a watch with an eta 2836 clone in it for a rolex 3135 clone?

My guess is Yes! Yes! Yes!

quote = I think Seiko has a quartz that splits the second into 10 ticks which sweeps to the eye.

/quote

Seiko had such a movement (I forget the calibre number and how many ticks per second) but the one a friend owns has "smooth" printed on the dial and is 'time only', no date. Under the dial is a small device that dampens the sweep second hand with a hairspring sealed inside liquid silicone to convert the tick - tick - tick normal quartz second hand motion to a smoother sweep.

The rolex oysterquartz 5035 date/5055 day-date movement fires once a second just like a $7 Wal-Mart special but it has a pallet fork and makes a much louder tick than a normal quartz watch. The OQ was made off the 3035 base plate and uses the same calendar parts, dial blank etc.

Lots of quartz chronographs have a smoother than one tick a second center timing hands but no telling how long the watch or battery would last. I guess you could use a quartz chronograph movement with a center sweep timing hand that ticks maybe 5 times a second, remove the recorder hands, install the dial of your choice, install the hour, minute, second (center timing) hands and just run the chronograph all the time.

You would also have to shorten the recorder hand pivots so the dial would lay flat and quartz watches also tend to have smaller holes in the hour and minute hands than mechanical movements so 'trademark' hands may be hard to find.

The quartz movement having jewels or not would not matter very much as the jewels are usually used only the time train wheels and there is not much friction on the various timer hands anyway. Eta makes some high jewel quartz chronograph movements but I doubt if it would be worth the extra money if a cheaper movement would work.

I have noticed on some quartz chronographs that battery life is measured by how long the timer is activated.

For example...

no timing = 3 years

4 hours timing per day = 2 years

8 hours per day = 1 1/2 years

timing 24/7 = 8 months

"But I would expect the ebay hammer will ultimately fall somewhere between $3,500-$10,000."

Post the item number so we can follow it.

Thanks

I will just have to chalk it up to experience since there is nothing left to do but pout.

Yeah, I have been on the wrong end of a few hot deals, the last being a rolex gmt master II that I thought I bought for $650, but the idiot who had it sold it! on credit! before I could get the ca$h to him the next day.

I have also talked to 'Bob Friendly' on the phone. I stayed a few steps ahead of him and he stayed cool. If you ask a question that requires much thought, he Bingos.

Otoh, I was looking for a spare 1030 movement last year and a running tutone 6605 DJ with the original bracelet for $1000 turned up right after I put the word out. It has a chronomter grade 1065 with a breguet haispring. Inside the caseback is I-56 and the clasp is stamped "swiss made" and "14" (for 14k center links), dated "3-56". It sort of made up for the gmt screwup.

Wait around and another deal will usually come by.

For instance, a guy called yesterday with a (running!) mid 1980s tutone oysterquartz 17013 DJ for $1500, not a bad price but I passed because I feel the same about OQs as I feel about Accutrons...they are like high priced light bulbs.

If it belongs to you when it pops, you are screwed.

If you sell it and it pops, the buyer will come knocking on the door. (after they find out how much rolexcrooks charge to fix it)

Something funny about the OQ...I sold it in July 1998. I figured it was gone for good.

...well, it's baaack.

Any watch will last as long as parts and service are available.

One catch with replicas is they often have non standard case and movement parts with no spare parts available.

Otoh, I would guess a swiss eta movement watch would run longer than an Asian movement watch without any service at all...provided you get a good one to start with.

Leaking gaskets, knocks, heat, cold, the way the watch is treated, how much it is worn etc has a bearing on the life too.

I have seen 5 year old replicas worn daily that look almost new.

I have seen 1 year old genuine rolex watches that look 25 years old.

Much of the life span of any watch depends on how it is treated.

If I wanted a 'one year watch'...I would go for the cheaper Asian movement watch.

If I wanted a 'five year watch'...I would go for a swiss eta movement watch.

"The question, which goes back to the main point of this post, is what the chances are of finding everything needed to result in a complete & functional 1036 GMT?"

Before I plunk down a grand (or thereabouts) on a 1030, I want to be at least reasonably sure that 1. All of the parts can be found."

Can all the parts be found?

They are out there of course but parts hoarders are holding on to them.

Parts for the 1030/1035/1036GMT from rolex USA was a dead end years ago and probably worse now. I do not know about the rest of the world.

For example...We needed a rotor bearing for a 1030 eight years ago so we put it on all our orders and every time, they wrote NA on the invoice...no rotor bearing.

Finally a friend of a friend (repair guy in big rolex AD) said he would try to get one. It came on his first order...they save hard to find parts for established dealers with watch repair shops in their stores, not parts account holders.

"2. Will the total cost of the 1030 plus all of the individual parts needed to convert to 1036 exceed the cost of buying a 1036 GMT outright."

Parts cost depends on where you find them. Buying them from a rolexnut collector will be waaay too expensive. If you find them in an old timer repair shop or supply house, the price may be reasonable.

"So far, I have always been able to find what I needed. However, I have never worked on a 1030 (or its variants), so I am hoping someone can fill in the blanks."

The 1030 is easy to work on...it is a lot like the 1530/1570 etc.

"Certainly, this is a rare skill in today's world & 1 that many current (& new) watchmakers are sadly lacking. However, making all the parts to assemble a complete & functioning watch used to be a prerequisite to becoming a professional watchmaker. The thing is that even the inflated prices being charged for gen Rolex parts these days come in at a veritable bargain relative to the cost of making parts from scratch."

From my experience, many of today's "watchmakers" are basically greenhorns who work with limited experience and less than high skills. Many of the top of the line younger guys today are people like The Zigmeister who do it as a hobby. There are some first rate repair guys in the business of course, but they have too much regular work to take on projects.

Some others have the skills but are too expensive to work on our kind of stuff.

If I was starting out learning how to work on this stuff for a hobby, I would specialize in what I like and leave the rest of the junk to guys who do it for a living.

In our case...Eta and rolex.

quote =

I think you have to be realy skilled to pull this off!

/quote

It is easy to change the movement configuration, the problem is finding the parts.

This movement has been out of production over 40 years.

Obtaining parts for vintage rolex movements is a problem and getting worse. Some claim a skilled watchmaker can "make anything" but this is not likely. They may be able to make flat parts...set levers, wheels, etc and round parts such as bezels, casebacks, wheel arbors etc but I seriously doubt independent watchmakers will be making hairsprings, pallet forks, balance assemblies, movement plates etc.

Maybe China will get busy and crank out rolex 1035 and 1575 clones for $125.

..and rolex 3135 clones for $150.

quote =

Gen 1016 springbars are not 2mm.

/quote

Submariner/1016 springbar plugs are about 1.2mm where they pass through the lugs and the center tube is 2.0mm.

Allow a little clearance for the 1.2mm plugs when drilling the lugs.

The base movement is the 1030.

The date movement is the 1035.

The GMT movement is the 1036 GMT.

The 1036 GMT uses different calendar disc etc than the 1035.

The 1035 has a star wheel mounted in the center of the date disc like the old manual wind 1215/1225 and the 1036 GMT has a calendar disc like a 1575 etc.

(date disc for a 1215/1225 has a different p/n from a 1035 disc)

(date disc for a 1575 has a different p/n from a 1036 GMT disc)

notes:

The 1065 (date) and 1066 GMT are similar to the 1035 and 1036 GMT except the 1065 and 1066 GMT have a different escapement...Breguet hairspring etc.

1030 introduced 1950

1065 introduced 1955

1080 (milgauss) introduced 1955

1035 introduced 1957

1036 GMT introduced 1957

1066 GMT introduced 1957

Original rolex factory part numbers.

(some may have changed and many are probably n/a)

1035 (date) parts different from a 1030 (no date):

center wheel with canon pinion p/n 7061

canon pinion only p/n 7062

double tooth hour wheel p/n 7063

driving wheel for date star p/n 7064 (screw for above p/n 7065)

date jumper p/n 7066 (screw for above p/n 7067)

calendar ring p/n 7068

date star p/n 7069 (must be rivited to date disc)

date disc complete with riveted star p/n 7070

1036 (GMT) parts different from a 1035 (date):

(center wheel and canon pinion are the same)

calendar yoke p/n 7086

calendar yoke spring p/n 7087

date disc p/n 7090

double tooth hour wheel p/n 7100

24 hour wheel p/n 7101

calendar wheel p/n 7102

date jumper p/n 7103

calendar ring p/n 7104

jewel for calendar ring p/n 7089-1

screws for conversion:

date jumper screw p/n 7085

calendar yoke spring screw p/n 7088

calendar wheel screw p/n 7105

support screw for set lever spring p/n 7106

(set of screws for one movement p/n 7101)

"i have both the DG4813 and 2813. the 48 is fairly smooth i'd say, the same as ETA and maybe even rolex, only reason it'd be jerky compared to rolex is that their movements are regulated and have no errors."

The DG/CH 2813/4813, NN38, Seagull ST16 (all the Miyota 8215 clones) have offset sweep seconds driven by a wheel outside the power train with a tension spring riding on the end of the sweep second pinion. For this reason, the second hands are sometimes prone to 'second hand stutter' if the tension is too light. This stutter will make the second hand appear to be less smooth than it should be.

Sometimes you can hold the watch on edge and see the second hand tracking as it should when running 'uphill' and stuttering when running 'downhill'.

uphill = heavy end of hand climbing up the dial with the watch on edge

Many 'classic' movements have offset ss pinions...rolex 1530, Bulova 11BLACD etc. (the Bulova is made a lot like the rolex)

The cure is to slightly increase the tension on the ss pinion tension spring.

"anyone actually know what the AD gets 'em for (@cost)?"

markup is about 42%

current steel submariner list price = $6000

dealer cost is around $3500

the distributor also makes a profit before the dealer gets it

...and the factory makes a profit

many believe today's actual production cost of a submariner including box etc is around $500 (robots work cheap)

Here are a few list prices and dealer cost figures from a few years ago off of a dealer price sheet...

(list to cost ratios are probably the same today)

seadweller 16600 $4000 $2351

submariner 16610 $3875 $2271

18k DJ 16248 bark finish jubilee/diamond dial $16,300 $9681

air king 14010 $2825 $1661

steel DJ with white gold turnograph bezel, oyster bct $4200 $2471

steel Daytona $5500 $3231

18k day-date with diamonds on lugs, diamond dial, diamond bezel, super prez with baguette bracelet etc...aka "the garbage wagon" $102,000 $60,601

Rolex is forgetting the most important rule of the marketplace:

Buyers set the price, not sellers.

By jacking up prices in a financial downturn, they may find their watches are no longer 'worth it' to many potential buyers.

If it were not for having to buy a watch I do not want, I would like to travel around and make some offers on new rolex watches after the first of the year and see what happens.

One snobby area rolex AD is on the rocks...a friend in the business told me their D&B rating has bottomed out. Christmas sales will probably keep them going until the first of the year...then their consignment payments come due.

$3 mil would buy a lot of RWs

(maybe all of them)

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years...082theron1.html

stars 'n jailhouse bars:

Otoh, for a lot less $$, maybe the "collectors" could get this old gal to model replicas...

(just keep her out from behind the steering wheel)

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/hloc...ml?link=rssfeed