zetterdawg

I agree the comment was somewhat flippant. I also don't have any experience in the business model of the rep world. I apologize if I've hurt any feelings. What I do know is in life almost everything is negotiable. There are very few things you can't negotiate some sort of deal on. As you buy larger $$ values and more inventory those negotiations become more prevalent. It's just plain easier for a manufacturer to deal in larger volume with a limited number of buyers than split those sales across a lot of small volume dealers. That's why I find it extremely hard to believe that buying 20% of a manufacturer's stock won't trigger some sort of volume discount. I'm not going to apologize because I've purchased a fair number of watches and have NOT received what was advertised. Superlume, swiss movements. A whole lot of rubbish. I have no issue with Angus and I think he's been doing some smart business by involving the community in finding the flaws pre-production. Really, I don't think he would disagree with my assertation in the previous message. I'm NOT going to thank him for letting us help do THEIR jobs. Do you honestly think they can't spend 20 minutes looking at the rep and the gen they purchased and pick out the flaws? I would love to post my work to the internet, have 20 people correct it and thank me for giving them the opportunity. As far as I'm concerned they should be thanking us, especially if 80% of their sales are to the unwashed masses who are benefiting from our attention to detail without offering up any value of their own. How do we even know the manufacturer is setting the price? I'm not calling anyone out here, but see my previous sentence and look around on the board and see all the discussions on how to keep the dealers from misrepresenting the products. Or do we assume the products are ok to misrepresent, but it's not ok for the business dealers which are infinitely less prove-able? Maybe the rep business is really americans buying watches in italy, spain, and other parts of the EU (in some countries it is illegal to even HAVE a rep, let alone sell them) and bringing them home. Maybe more watches are sold in Malaysia (33rd GDP in the world and 27M people) than the US (1st GDP, 300M people) Maybe this rep uses super duper expensive steel Maybe this rep has superior lume Maybe the Asian 7750 movement manufacturer is choosing to squeeze the manufacturers Maybe wood is really expensive I could go on for a long time on all the reasons I've heard why this or that watch is going to be really expensive. I choose not to believe it, I choose to believe that the price is set because the dealers believe that's what will maximize their profits. Limited supply (only 4 dealers) and a new product with reasonable build quality can demand a premium price. People are going to buy the watch at the higher price. We saw a lot of complaining over the HBB but I still saw people post reviews (a lot of bad stuff about quality I might add. That's a watch I will probably never own, but if it dropped in price I would definitely buy. I'm sure there are a lot of people in that boat. I'd love to see a dealer cowboy-up and say "We're going to charge a lot because it's nice, it's new and we can charge that price and still sell." Sorry if I'm ruffling feathers, but this is a forum right? We're here to talk about things like this. Different opinions make for spirited debate. Z

If you guys are buying 20% and not getting a price break than you are getting more screwed than us. Z

so the other 80% are from countries that are essentially 3rd world compared to the US? This isn't a rah rah USA post, but I don't imagine there are more people in Thailand willing to spend $450 on this watch than there are in say... um... California - the 5th biggest economy in the world. I could be convinced for the rep market as a whole there is a good deal of business done outside the US, but for the high end stuff I'm not so sure. Is the price a lot cheaper for the people in these other countries? Do the wholesalers get it for cheaper? btw, I'm sure it's a nice watch, no one is discounting that.

ha - I've bought A7750 based PAM reps for $139.00 and I can guarantee the dealer and manufacturer still made money. I'm guessing the cost to make this rep is between $50-$75. Most of that price is spread across however many they choose to produce. only 10-20% of the product sells here? so somewhere there are 80-90% of the folks that are into relatively obscure very high end reps but they don't participate on one of the 3 biggest internet forums for that very topic? Or maybe angus means RWG is 10-20% and the other 2 or 3 boards are 10-20 % as well. I just can't imagine the guy on the street walking up to a stall and buying a $500 rep of an IWC.... Rolex yes, Omega yes, Panerai maybe, but IWC... yah - people with $500 to spend on a high end rep of a small market watch that don't really use the internet otherwise they'd be here already. scenario 3 price = $450 cost = $100 number of pieces sold = 100 profit = $35,000

sorry to go negative but... I see the buck is officially passed on to the manufacturer. Of course the price is high because it was set by the manufacturer... that happens with other products where they also jack you on the price. Show me the reasons why this watch needs to be more expensive than almost any other 7750 based watch. Lume? Nope, it's not SuperLume AR? We know that ads at most $40 per watch. In bulk it's probably under $20 Materials? Wood is cheap, metal is cheap. Complications? Nothing above that which a 7750 can do. Had to buy the original? You can resell that watch and get back a lot of your investment if you were smart in purchasing it. Attention to detail and Time? Probably not a lot more than any other watch, and the community has certainly helped. Even the darn near perfect Ferrari rep was sub $300 Finally - the market for this watch is the people on these boards. This is not a watch you will see "on the street". It's a nice watch, but I'm not going a dollar over $300. again, sorry for the negativity. blah. bad day, bad week.

I'll talk to him, but I think it's up to D to decide what format he needs. I would do this project with my wife who is a professional CAD designer.

I got custom spotted lizard straps made for my wife and I on our LV's. I love it. as for the BR being too large.... hmmm. I wear it with a 7.25 inch wrist and I love it.

First of all you have a beautiful collection. High quality reps. Good job. with all the controversy I feel awkward making this recommendation, but honestly the watch that's getting the most of my wrist time is the B&R from J/A. I wasn't sure I was going to like the watch at all..... honestly I bought it knowing the movement wasn't the best (but I trust J/A will send me a new movement cheap if needed). Once I got the watch it just stayed on my wrist. months later, still on my wrist. I saw on Josh's site that the rubber B&R strap is coming out. Another plus. Finally, I'm going to drill my case out and put real hex bolts in where they are drawn in now to make it near perfect.

I offered to be that person. I asked him what format he needed the drawings in, but I'm 100% sure I could do a 100% accurate set of dials 177/111 001/005/195/etc z

on second thought the logo is wrong, it's not angled enough. and it's too big. sigh.

i hate being right on this. It seems like such an easy thing to fix. The 12/3/6/9 numerals also need to be thicker. z

logo isn't wrong, it's just too big.

OH NO YOU DINT! a flanking manuever!!!!

Price fixing will also work if supply is controlled. In a lot of cases only the 4 cartel dealers can get the watches. Thus the artificially high watch prices are held up. Market forces won't win in that case. It is kinda the same thing with AD's. They get access to merch as long as them agree to sell at a certain price. When folks say "price isn't the issue", I believe they mean if it WAS a fair playing ground where dealers represented the watch for what it was, and a bunch of dealers had access to the watch we'd see price become a non issue as the magic "market forces" would work it out. Now as soon as you control supply or are willing to lie about what the watch is then your ability to figure out what you would feel ok paying for the watch gets broken.

hahaha that was my thread: steelfish price

I bought the B&R. I love the watch - it's probably one of my favorites if not my favorite. Do I wish it had the superlume as advertised? Yes Do I wish it had a better movement? Yes (and I'm crossing my fingers than the shitty engine doesn't give out) Would I have bought it for $250 knowing it had almost no lume and a crappy movement? Probably not. Visually it is very close to the gen. That's worth something to me, but I would prefer not to be manipulated into a purchase. Buyers need to vote with their dollars. Start buying your reps from dealers that cowboy up and tell you the good with the bad about the watches. The only problem with that is some rep supply is being controlled among 4 dealers (ie the hublot, who else carries it??) Voting with your dollars will help with that. If manufacturers make exclusive deals with dealers that jack up prices and we don't buy them, the manufacturers will open up supply to other dealers. It's all dollars and (common) sense. Z

yah, that's a genuine FM dial. I did the transplant after I bought the watch with a black face.

here's mine in blue face: I think you know which one I like now

I think Klink changed his post.

clearly the more you pay the better the product. Anyway - look at the title of this post "... lack of movement pic". This thread is hot on the tail of a popular thread about watches being advertised with Swiss ETA when they clearly were not. Since one of the big selling points of this watch is the "expensive" swiss ETA movement, people want to see visual proof before they shell out the $300+ Z

I call shinnenegans on you - you have to be a dealer shill. No one would insist so much that we "buy now" "spend lots" and "you'd better worry because the watches are going to get worse". Now the question is - which dealer are you?

Is it wrong for me to say I'm not really too impressed with the 1000 ft waterproof "guarantee"? How hard is it really - it's a simple watch - screw down crown, screwed in back, thick crystal. Waterproofing isn't magic - a solid design + silicon grease. When I get a new rep I do the same thing they do - grease and test. There is no magical machine, multi-hour process, or ultra-expensive material they use. The materials are cheap, and labour is cheap in china. If they are saying the design is the key, even that's not going to be super-expensive and it's all amortized over 100's of watches they sell anyway. 1000 ft water resistence is new to the rep world, but it doesn't really impress me that much. Take this trend - watches exclusive to only certain dealers to its logical end - the Gen market. Gen's are marked up 1000's of percent because there is only one dealer, so they can charge what they want. If you don't like the price, don't buy it. So along comes the rep market. Close enough and the price feels right so we buy them. I think we've been too focused on the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" side of the argument. Z

I like what you wrote. It summarizes the conversation nicely. With Eddie and River out of the hobby, are we going to a 4 party system? If the manufacturers want to limit exposure and potentially liability they may only sell to certain dealers which may result in prices going up up UP.

$150 at silix prime for the latest version ultimate PO with swiss movement. That's a damn-fine watch, and I'm pretty sure silix is still making money because even though I'm an idiot I gather they can't stay in business selling things for less than they buy them for. I think the issue with the superocean is they are limiting its availability to try and keep the price high. That's what the discussion is about. I don't think we're stealing commissions from anyone, but theoretically they could be charging over 100% commission on these watches. Some will pay, others will not. Some will stay quiet and wait, others will ask "Hey what's up with that". whatever.

oh well then, that makes sense to me because I am an idiot. a huge idiot. and I stink, I have poor hygene which has led to a situation where I smell really bad. and I find myself attracted to dead people in *that* way. and I eat my own toenails. so I hope you feel better about yourself now.