sssurfer

@rmcsherry: I would go with double AR. Also the gens can be AR re-coated in the end. And the look improvement that you get in crisper colors and fonts is going to give the watch an even more genuine overall look than single AR, IMHO.

@subzero1: exceptional combo!

I have found that the 2892's truly need regular service (every 3 years or so) and that is the price we pay for having them. It is a real pain in the neck. But as long as there is a date changer on the side, which may well be superior in terms of less stress on the watch, I have no interest in having a PAM rep with this movement. It is a glaring and unfixable flaw short of recasing the watch.

Thanks for your feedback, kruzer!

I absolutely agree about the unaccuracy issue, my post was just about the quality of the ST2530.

On the recasing note, both ajoesmith and I are in search for a solution. Unfortunately, the ST2530 is almost doubly thick than a 2892A2: 7.35mm vs 3.65mm. All the PAM cases that we have tried so far could not accept it.

The most plausible candidate was the Silix' Asian 027 case. It holds the DG 3886 movement, i.e. the second thickest movement in PAM reps (6.2mm thick). Results: no luck as well.

Maybe one can make room enough by dremeling the caseback so to make it thinner, but this opens up to other issues as the Silix' 027 case is non-standard in other sizes of it.

I am going to work on this project again as soon as I'll be done with a current cyclops batch that is taking more time than expected -- my apologies for that.

Also are the new PAM "in-house" caliber TOTALY

Really?

Even so thin 8-10 days PR movements w/ PR indication etc?

Wowowowoooow!!!

I LOVE IT!

Thanks, a wonderful idea for my next project!

BTW...that was a @$3000. vintage Beanie Baby in their prime!!...And we think watch collectors are "patso"!!..LOL

Oh my!

I think I still have a Bigo Bello from my early childhood somewhere... do you think I can trade it for a gen PAM?

fat.tail.event, I suppose you are aware that the brown dial is correct to the 036, are you?

Or did you mean that DSN's "brown" is incorrect because of being it sort of "purple" instead?

Anyway, a 177 dial is just like a 111E dial into a Ti case. As Davidsen makes the 111E, you might ask him for a 111E dial so to avoid any possible misfit between other dealers' dials and your DSN case.

On a technical point of view no doubt, Panerai are overpriced.

Just, maybe not so much as one can think by looking at the movement only, though. There are a few details (crown guards, cyclops, sandwich crystals, sandwich dials, date on sandwich dials, linear PR gauges...) that are likely to contribute to the price in unexpected ways.

So, one might say that PAM price is driven by non-movement details at a higher extent than in, e.g., Rolex.

Or, in other words, that the Officine are investing more in fashion details than in function good basics -- at least in comparison with Rolex and some other brands.

What brings us straightforward to the second point.

When we include fashion in consideration, "overpricing" becomes a meaningless word, price being only driven by the law of demand and supply (as the 127 and 203 tales teach us, too).

In these ages where looking (especially looking rich) seems more important to common people than being (especially than being intelligent), this may reveal a winning long-term strategy.

So in the end I too think that Panerais are here to stay, and to progressively subtract increasing market areas to Rolex and other brands in spite of any overpriceness.

Also, Lorica straps (inexpensive and easy to find on Ebay) come in pure white and 24/24 width, so they can be used on PAMs.

Not nicely thick, though (2 - 2.5mm max).

Yes, start with some thin blade just to separate the two layers enough to insert a watchsmith knife.

Work gently on the full circumference of the dial, small segment after small segment, until you get a feeling of where the pins are.

Then work near the pins, always gently, a fraction of mm near one pin, then a fraction of mm near the other pin, and so on.

It is more difficult to say (at least by a poor English speaker like me) than to do. At leat it was on my dials.

Wow, another friend here!

Thanks, Frank!

A PVD 090?!? Interesting! Any pics?

Btw, the 35 jewels thing is true.

I think I've read somewhere that the prices of the 028 are higher than that..they really rarely appear on the 2nd hand market...

Good to know. I was remembering prices of 1+ years ago, they have probably grown up now. And the USD is weaker.

from all the pannies, the two I'd love to have are the 028 and the 203...

We have a lot of things in commons, dadog!

Even if the 104, 147 and 212 are not so bad to me too.

Not to speak about the 233, 236, 270, 274...

So is there a special method to remove the dial from the movement?

I disassembled only two sandwich dials, both from two PAM 203, one manual-wind (6497 movement), the other one auto ("Asian 21J" movement).

Both they had no screws to keep the dial in place, just two metal pins quite easy to remove from the movement plate (the pins were not even glued). I have been able to remove the dials by simply applying gentle lever action with a watchsmith knife.

How do you seperate a sandwich dial? Is there a method?

Well, no special method actually. Just a watchsmith knife, or a thin screwdriver, and patience.

You may have a look at the results in this old post of mine.

Just:

1) it was not focused on separating the layers of a sandwich dial;

2) I told to remove the old lume with a blade -- then I found acethone safer and troubleless;

3) in that post I tried a different (and cheaper) pigment than Superluminova, but I now recommend to go with Superluminova.

I was just reading an italian watch magazine last night...from the 1998...the price of these (027 & 028) was 4.600.000 lit (lire italiane)...that would be today something as 2.300

do you think if the rep makers would improve the case/dial/CG/crown/caseback on the asian PR PAMs and leave the already great (cheap and reliable) movements in, that we would have a sort of SUPER rep?

Unfortunately, no. The position of the power reserve pin on the Asian movements is slightly different than on the genuine movements. That would prevent from a 100% dial even if the printing and all other features were perfect.

well, just to add one more pic of a PR dial (this is a rare dial // seems it is a prototype dial) :

Yes, a prototype, and a very early one too.

Oddly, a next-step prototype (028 too) is what is displayed as 027 and 028 reference pics on some sites also including the ViaPaneristi site:

http://poodpood.spymac.com/officinepanerai/

http://poodpood.spymac.com/officinepanerai/target20.html

http://poodpood.spymac.com/officinepanerai/target21.html

http://www.viapaneristi.com/pammodels.htm

http://www.viapaneristi.com/pammodelsrefer...amhtm/pam28.htm

Wow, I too would have sworn that The Zigmeister recommended to remove the old lume before applying the new one, and to do it by careful hand work with a precision blade.

On my very limited experience, removing the old lume from hands and sandwich dials is a trouble-free and scratch-free procedure, by just dipping them (only the back layer of the dial, I mean ) in acethone for 10 mins then rubbing them with a soft cloth.

And removing the old lume from a sandwich dial helps in not getting it too thick, so avoiding problems with the central pin and small seconds hand.

Obviously, a sausage dial is a completely different matter...

(Awesome painting and painting skills, Rob!)

Wow, two great friends of mine here in a row! Thanks fellows for your feedback.

Dadog, I was "just" comparing the ST/TY 2530 to the ETA 2892-A2.

You also called the Asian 027/028 in, i.e. the Asian DG 3886 - DG 3886D3 movement.

I also used to wear it extensively, and I was fully appointed with it too.

It is even 1mm thinner than the monster 2530...

As a matter of fact, the only score I can give the 2892-A2 so far is its incredibly low thickness.

Some time ago I saw a pic of a 028 on an all-black baseball strap that was awesome. The strap looked as it was one same thing with the watch.

Unfortunately I seem unable to find it again even after searching on all the forums.

1. PVD'd 44mm case with display back, saphire front crsytal (no AR)

Argh. You went exactly on the hardest way. If you want a very accurate rep, both PVD and display back are a call for troubles.

What would you prefer, an advice about the best you can take out from what you have there, or hints to a pretty accurate PAM rep?

You are welcome. Let us know if you choose one, and best wishes on it.

15 to get started:

From Silix:

http://www.silix-prime.com/product.asp?id=1604

http://www.silix-prime.com/product.asp?id=1599

http://www.silix-prime.com/product.asp?id=1585

From Tony (power reserve!):

http://www.watch-ebay.net/ProductsView.asp?id=2479

http://www.watch-ebay.net/ProductsView.asp?id=2480

From Mark:

http://www.timesshop.net/Luminor_Panerai_P...reserve_599.htm

http://www.timesshop.net/Panerai_Radiomir_...tomatic_987.htm

These 8 42mm radiomirs from Josh:

http://www.pc-80108.com/panerai-radiomir-42mm-c-35_49.html

I'm trying to find out what parts, exactly, I need to create my ultimate rep. From what I've read I'll need...

1. Susage 27 dial

2. Any 44mm SS case

3. 6497 movement, preferably Swiss

If you are meaning a PAM 027 dial, be advised that it not so accurate*, and that the PAM 027 has a power reserve indicator that the 6497 movement does not have.

*Excellent print quality, but "flat" power reserve gauge instead of "sunken", and (minor and common flaw to all PAM reps) less-than-perfect "A"s in the text.

I want to use the 2893 as my understanding is that it is a true GMT movement and not a modified one. I will be making my own face so I do not care where the date is on the donor watch.

Sorry for confusion - was exhausted last night when I was typing

Thanks, now it is clear.

I suppose that the original Asian movement in your J12 had a date window in the proper place.

If so, then you can go easy with a 2893. The 2893 is a very thin movement, AFAIK all the Asian movements with an eye @4:30H are thicker than it.

Oh well, at least the seller has the decency to sell reps at rep prices.

When the watch is really too bad to even look at it, he even gives the box included.

Not a big issue, just another case of selling reps on Ebay, not really a scam.

The movement is simply defective.

Is it a 7750 or an "Asian 21J"?