slay

4 minutes ago, Sogeha said:

Thank you @slay. I see exactly what you mean now and accept your points about the blue hands and screw down pushers. Your watch is a beauty and like your other builds I wouldn't say no, but different folks, different strokes and I prefer Daytonas with a black bezel. Wouldn't do for us all to be the same anyway.

Oh no worries whatsoever, even my own taste on certain models, brands and also individual parts has changed significantly over time. For the majority of Daytona's I also prefer the black bezel over the steel bezel. Apart from the graceful Oyster Case itself, I actually think the black bezel is one of the prettiest individual parts of the vintage Daytonas (just not on my albino :P)

Before you buy a gold plating device, make sure to research the chemicals. The ones that you need to do a good plating are very toxic and can kill you upon contact if handled improperly (Cyanide!). I speak from experience 

 

@Bart Cordell apologies for the delay emailing you back, I was quite busy traveling etc. over the past few months, I'll share some of my results with you soon.

Gen 7205 Bracelet, Valjoux 72 Movement, Phong Case, Heuer Valjoux 72 Subdial Hands, DW Hour/Minute/Center Seconds Hands, Dung/Vietnam Custom Ordered Dial

9 minutes ago, Sogeha said:

I have long admired albino Daytonas, that is beautiful. Apart from having Daytona on the dial and no Oyster it looks very similar to the 6263 albino dial. Is that the case and could your source produce a 6263 dial please?

I think there's a big difference to the 6263 Albino. See below the 6263 Albino. Different Hands and most importantly Different Sub-dials. Compared to the 6239, the sub-dials on the 6263 albino much more recessed and of a different style. The 6239 sub-dials transition much more smoothly to the rest of the dial surface. On the 6263 albino there is almost a "step" between dial and sub-dial. 

I personally find the 6239 much more elegant and much more unique (compared to other Daytonas of that period). In my opinion: The 6239 is a work of art, the 6263 is a prototype. The screw-down pushers, the black bezel and the blue hands create too big of a distraction from the albino dial (while drawing too much attention to the watch itself). It's like wearing a Purple Shirt and a High School Graduation Ring to a fine italian blue/gray tailor made suit. 

 

The 6239 Albino is arguably one of the rarest Rolex watches that exist (I couldn't find pictures of more than 2 Gen examples). Not to be confused with the 6263 "Eric Clapton" Albino (which sports a ROC dial and a black plastic bezel), the 6239 has some magical elegance to it and I had to have one. Unfortunately all dials I have previously seen were a big no-no for me - the subdials were just too obviously flawed and disturbed the elegance and smooth sunburst pattern of the dial way too much in my opinion. 

This is the gen, for reference:

A year or so ago, I decided to give it a shot at replicating this watch and had a dial + case custom made to my specifications. I was happy enough with the outcome, since it surpassed all other albino dials by a wide margin. The result is below. Please note that the smudge at the T SWISS T mark, which looks like damage to the dial, is actually a scratch on the crystal. 

The only thing I am still missing are Valjoux 72 hands with a black line through the center. They look very much like the Hands on the White-Faced Rolex 16520 (Zenith) Daytona. 16520 hands should almost fit, I may have to broach each hand by 0.1mm.

This is mine:

It's [censored], don't bother with that one! This case has completely different dimensions than a vintage Daytona should.


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On 12/31/2016 at 6:38 PM, TheSociety said:

Great info. How does this look compared to yours?



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Not good. The movement parts have not been refinished. It looks like only two bridges were swapped. That's not a proper conversion. Rolex refinished each part by hand, the edges of even the tiniest parts and springs are beveled & polished on the sides. See the picture below to give you a better idea.

 

The balance bride looks like it has been changed to one with KIF shock protection and the Rolex marked chrono bridge was added. I can't tell from a picture whether the amplitude has been converted to 21600bph. However - just swapping the balance is not enough, you need to translate the amplitude via gears for correct time keeping. If you keep the same gears & change the amplitude, the watch won't run accurate anymore. I highly doubt someone would go through all the trouble to find a 21600bph balance wheel & spring, change many of the gears inside the movement, but then stop at refinishing all the visible parts. 

 

Below is the level of finish that I expect from a genuine Rolex 72B or 727. I'm sure you can instantly see that all the movement parts on your pic look much "rougher" and nowhere near as nice & smooth as on the picture below. 

 

very cool work. I'm surprised they changed the old dials - they indeed look much much better.

I mean exactly that -  not comparable.
They don't fit the Daytona cases.

After removing the alarm parts you can fit them in a Daytona case. See paristos who posted pics of his 6263 with a converted v730


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Don't worry, I know that. I've looked at tons of movements and studied them and a fully converted 727 would be way out of my range. The bridge alone is $450 from Phong. I was offered a fully converted 727 and rejected it because it's not worth it to me. I have a non-converted serviced Certina v72 I'm completely happy with. This just happens to already come serviced with the bridge too. It is a fully built complete with a Phong case, yuki dial, and hands. I'm swapping out for an MQ dial I have incoming

Good. Just wanted to make sure you weren't taken advantage of and sold a lemon - like several other members before you!

You are correct, what phong charges for a full & proper conversion is ridiculous and only economical for someone who wants to pass the converted movement of as genuine.
Other movement finishers may be able to do the conversion for less though (including swiss and German watchmakers).


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Can anyone advise as to what the differences are between the 727 and 72, and how that might affect a 62XX series build?

Rolex modified the Base valjoux 72 heavily.

Technics:

They changed the Amplitude to 21600bph (from 18000), which makes the watch more accurate. They also used KIF shock protection

Optics:

Rolex Hand finiahed each Individual part of the movement, they beveled & polished the edges of even the smallest parts and finished the top side of all bridges with grooves.

Sometimes the sellers scam members here who don't know any better and just swap out the bridge and call it converted. The finish of the movement is usually the easiest tell. I posted some pictures of my 727 a couple of weeks ago in this thread, if you compare them to a regular v72 you will see the difference immediately.

Below is a schma I made that will give you a good idea how much work such a conversion is:

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Got the whole movement complete with the bridge (Phong) and serviced. It's my second v72 - I have mostly sold off all my other pieces in favor of two v72 builds, one white and one black Newman. I have a black Newman RCO dial on order from MQ and the other Newman has a gen "Texas" dial from the 80s


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I hope you didn't pay too much more than 1600$ for this movement, because the only thing that has been changed vs. any generic valjoux 72 is the chronograph bridge! It's not converted to a 727. I hope he didn't tell you otherwise.


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Newest acquisition !


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Did you buy the whole movement like this or just the Rolex bridge?

the crystal is already shaved to the max. Problem is the thickness of it atop. And the dome T21 is a no go. I really wonder what T21 could replace a T19...
I guess stock varied from a dw to an other...

Use a tropic 21 dome from Clark's (and glue it with epoxy for waterproofness if it doesn't fit) or get a GS tropic 19 dome (from startime) and shave it. The GS acrylic has a dome that is significantly thinner than Clark's and other t19s.


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slay, if your watchmaker has the time/skill to perform this delicate, factory-set adjustment routinely, my hat's off to him.

Yeah... when I read this I thought 'this sounds more complicated than brain surgery'


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I do not know any watchmakers (including myself) who poise the balance as part of a routine service. In fact, unless there is a specific problem with the balance, I cannot think why you would disassemble it in the 1st place. The only time I would poise a balance is when replacing/repairing the hairspring, balance wheel or balance screws.

If a watchmaker is adjusting the watch, that's what they need to do. Copypasta from my watchmaker below:

Adjusting a watch involves procedures that include
ensuring the balance wheel is 'balanced' (poised),
adjusting the hairspring, and even shaping the balance
pivots and adjusting how the hairspring is attached to
the balance wheel.

The three critical adjustments are for position (as
defined above, see accuracy), temperature (the ability
to keep good time over a range of different
temperatures), and isochronism (the ability to keep an
even rate over the life of one spring wind, typically 24
hours). An un-adjusted watch should run reasonably
constant in two to three positions (for a pocket watch
dial up, pendant up, pendant left/right) as these are the
most common positions the watch would encounter
either in the pocket, or on a table at night. High grade
watches are adjusted to five positions or more.




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I got my 1030 for $1300 two years ago. It was "recently serviced" but there's no way that's the case, because the amplitude of the balance is way low, and the isochronism sucks too. The hairspring is probably out of plane, and the mainspring is probably fatigued.
Recently serviced can be untrue sometimes. Either way, I got a good deal, so I'm not super upset about it.

Not all watchmakers poise the balance etc. during service. Some will just take apart to clean/oil gears/jewels/bridges and adjust the time.


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16 hours ago, Nanuq said:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/10417888

 

I'm tired of people (in particular those who hold the same political views as I do and in particular Ivy League grads) watering down the meaning of certain words in our language. There is a reason why courts and countries are arguing for years over whether certain horrible events can be called a genocide or not. 

Not everyone you don't like is Hitler either! So until someone uncovers a book that describes hierarchy and value of different races, written by Trump years ago while sitting in prison for trying to overthrow the government with a force of mercenaries, stop calling him (or anyone else for that matter) Hitler!

Wow! I re-read this 10 times to make sure that I'm going nuts and you really said it started as a *1680* case. Great work!


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Lovely! Especially the combo of recessed subdials and texture you added to the dial


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Looks awesome.. one thing I've always wondered is how in the real world do these gens get their dials and hands so beat up and tarnished? Were the watchmakers back then just savage on their handling? Too many times I see gen vintage watches and the dials are beat.. 

The dials had radium lume plots in the 50s, so a lot of the 'beat up' look is from radioactive decay. Glossy dials that are still glossy 60+ years later with radium markers are most certainly fake or had the radium/tritium stripped many many years ago.


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Relumed/aged the dial myself:

 

Damn, I thought you was an Ivan dial man!

You can get a genuine 6263 dial for 3k, not a PN of course, but who knows if Ivan even makes PN dials (I've never seen one)


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Does anyone have another source for the big lollipop seconds aside from Tiger and Micheal Young? Any pin hole size will do, I have broaches to adjust.

You're killing me!


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Per this thread, 3D scanning won't work for this. An expert in the field told us they are not accurate enough.

And the factory which actually makes these cases said that's what they need to make a case (as per my message)


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I spoke to a watch parts re-seller in China about a custom case order and he got in touch with a factory that previously made a high quality Vintage Rlx Case that he sold. I asked this particular guy, because I bought a good case from him at a good price and the case-back is the first one I've owned where my Rolex Oyster Opener fits like a glove (maybe just coincidence ) . The "MONTRES ROLEX..." embossing on the inside is also very good and better than on other 1000$+ cases that I've seen.

Here is what I gathered so far:

• Minimum Order Quantity is 100 Cases, though it will be cheaper if a bigger order is placed (they normally do bigger production runs than 100).
• The factory needs 3D Scans or Drawings. For best results, they also need a genuine sample case. 
• They have experience making oyster watch cases and they do full detailing on the case (and assembly if crown/tube/pushers are part of the case) - not just simple CNC'ing.
• I don't have a price/case yet. My contact said the factory needs 3D Scans or Drawings for a proper price quotation. I will see if I can get at least a ball-park figure for a run of 100, 200 and 500 cases without the 3D Scans. 
• Based on pricing I could negotiate for a single case that he had in stock, I'd estimate that a run of ~100 Cases can be realized for 100$ or less per case (excl. the cost of 3D Scanning!).

Can I see a show of hands who is interested in pursuing this further? What I mean is: Willing to share the upfront investment & work involved and aware of the risks involved (I've been around for 10 years and the majority of member projects which involved more than a datewheel turned to shit in one way or another).

Where were we on the topic of 3D Scanning? Is there only this one company that takes 1000$ for case scan, or did someone have a scanner at work or otherwise accessible (or know of a cheaper vendor)?

 

@paristoto (as FYI)