archibald

JF cases also have a finish that is superior to the average rep case. This is most easily observed on the back of the case, which lacks the commonly found machine marks around the lugs.

Jimmy Parts are a fine (and sadly rare and expensive anymore) investment for any PAM rep collector. The descriptions above are dead on accurate--here are a few differences between Jimmy parts and gen:

--the difference in finish between a jimmy guard and a gen guard is about as much as the difference in finish between a rep guard and a jimmy guard--which is to say noticeable to a hard core collector, but minimal on the wrist.

--There is some variation in Jimmy cases and CG's For example: comparing 3 Jimmy cases side by side w/ a gen E series 086 as I type this, the Jimmy lugs are .25mm to .88mm farther apart--@ .88mm there is a noticeable gap between strap and inside of the lugs. Comparing 2 Jimmy CG's there is a noticeable gap between lever and CG "body" on one and a too-short pin on the other.

--some of Jimmy's crystals are glass--he was ripped off by is supplier who swapped glass for sapphire midway through production.

Also...a couple hints: The fastest way to tell the difference between a jimmy case and a rep case is to look for a indentation between the lugs. If your case has it it's a rep case. A rep crystal can be made to fit a jimmy case, but you'll have to glue it.

We can complain all we want to about people not donating, etc. but at the end of the day the sustainability of this forum will be based on coming up with an alternative payment system to replace what we had and/or siginificantly reducing the cost of the forum if possible. And yes I will donate again but I do hope more computer literate folks than I are trying to help Admin figure out a sustainable support system. Living from month to month cannot be fun for Admin.

In the long run either people voluntarily step up or I would see no other choice than to severely restrict usage by non-paying members. If this was a web-site for legal goods our costs would be a lot lower but it is not and they are not.

I'm dealing with an issue a lot like this w/ a client, a small union that got in PR trouble w/ their membership because they moved their web site from free to fee. As they added more valuable info their usage went up and they were losing money on bandwidth and admin salary costs. They've had pretty good luck w/ a modified verson of what cable, cell phone, satellite radio, etc companies are moving toward. They had been getting a lot of [censored] for adding a pretty expensive all-inclusive website access fee to the members'dues (everyone was saying "why should I have to pay for that feature. I'll never use it!!), but found that the griping diminished and their revenues actually increased when they offered their members the opportunity to mix and match services. Instead of offering an all the info or none of the info proposition, they let folks pick only what they wanted access to--the RWG version would be something along the lines of "Bigger PM box costs $X, access to the trade section costs $X,access to The Zigmeister's stuff costs $X, more gallery space $X, etc--or all of it for less than the total a la carte price. Bettert to make five bucks from someone who won't pay 30 bucks to sell one or two reps. My first question was, "doesn't it cost a lot to keep track of what everyone is signed up for?" they said that that is largely automated so that they're costs didn't climb nearly as much as their revenue.

Would a comparison pic of the movement in a gen 000G, which is powered by a minimally decorated 6497-2, help? I just sold mine to a neighbor, but I bet I can borrow it anytime to take a few pics. What should I take close ups of?

I had an interesting experience in a tourneau store a couple of weeks ago. I was wearing a RXW MM10 (PAM homage) and was asking if they had any aftermarket bracelets that would fit (I was looking for an oyster style with endpieces that would match the squared case). The salesman, initially making the assumption that it was a PAM, or just being polite, asked "so you don't want a genuine." I replied that the watch wasn't a PAM, but rather a homage and tried to explain a little of the history behind the RXW brand. Most of this seemed to be lost on him because he was obviously thinking replica.

He stepped backwards and to the side to confer with another salesman. Salesman two then stepped forward and said "so you are looking for a fake PAM band". At this point, I didn't think it was going to be worth the effort to reiterate that I was looking for an oyster band. I just replied that I didn't care who made it, I just wanted a metal bracelet for the watch. He told me that I might have more luck on ebay.

As this was occuring another salesman (salesman 3) walked up to the first salesman and they start whispering. Then salesmen one and three joined salesman two at the counter and salesman one introduces me to salesman three. They informed me that up until recently they (several of the salesmen in the store) were aware of a web page where you could buy extremely accurate "fakes" (their terminology). The web page was no longer up at that point.

Apparantly, quite a few of them had purchased replica PAMs that they wore when they weren't working. They said it all started when I customer came in to have his PAM worked on and it was sent back to Panerai for servicing. They said the watch was returned to the store with a note from Panerai that it was not a genuine PAM. The salesman said that this was unusual for a company to send back a fake, but that the note went on to say that the watch had fooled the service tech until he opened the case and realized it wasn't one of their watches. Impressed by the quality of the watch Panerai had supposedly sent it back to the store because they didn't want to destroy it. This last part of the story seemed a little far fetched. Has anyone here ever heard a story like that.

The guy ay my Tourneau worked at the Ritz Camera in the same mall for yesrs, and I guarantee still knows far more about cameras than watches. I think Tourneau hires more based on sales ability than watch knowledge, and probably that's a good idea. It looks to me like those guys were just trying to not get in trouble and in their minds trying to protect their livelyhoods.

As far as the OP repair shop sending reps back to AD's--OP may view this as some sort of education program for their AD's rather than some kind of admiration of Chinese copyright infringing craftsmanship...

In any case, the guys at my Tourneau are such hard-selling dopes, I don't feel guilty trying on watches. I just ask them if they're willing to match any AD price. They say yes, but their enthusiasm and the hard sell diminishes rapidly after you ask them that....

I can add you to my list however, I need to double check with the maker to make sure I can add extra dials to my production run. I know it should be possible with some more $$$ being put into it

Why limit your production (and proifit) to what you estimate you can sell? Anyway, I can tell you from experience (and so can lello, chieftang, etc. I bet) that your actual demand will be less than the number of people you think want these dials at present.

A good way to do do this--which has been done w/ many projects including the cylops and DW projects I was involved in--is to request a partial payment up front. This serves several purposes: First, it lets you collect enough money to make enough to satisfy demand since you can pay your source half up fornt with the members' payments. You only make the amount you have money for. Second, it really separates the serious from the not serious. I've found that lots of people say they want 16 but when it's time to pay that number goes down to 1. Finally, it helps you organize the shipping because people can provide their addresses directly into Paypal when they pay. You don't have to keep track of PM's and Emails and PayPal, etc.

What seems to work best is to make a deal w/ your supplier to pay a percentage of the money upon completion of a good prototype but before production. Then posting a new thread when you have pictures of a prototype that meets your expectations, announcing how many you will make, what they will cost, etc. People can then pay a percentage and you can send that money to your supplier. If you're making a decent profit on these you might be able to pay your supplier 75% or more...or at least avoid taking a loss when it's time for people to pay the rest of the money. When production is complete you can collect the rest of the money. That way you have spent your time and energy, but hopefully not very much money.

The down side, of course, is that nobody is going to send any money unless your supplier gets these right. I know we're all willing to help w/ that in any way we can--not for money but just to get a good dial for our Santos 100's!

BTW, do you have an agreement w/ your supplier that they will not sell these dials until you sell out of the ones you commissioned? There is precedent for people commissioning projects only to find a dealer offering them at the same or lower price as sson as production is complete. Feel free to PM for details.

How hard would it be to do it ourselves?

The answer to that question is, "hard." More precisely...

finding the right font and/or vectorizing them: time consuming

alignment: tedious

learning all the little tricks to getting the vectors, layout, registation marks, and colors the way the printer wants them: complicated

Finding a printer willing to them near OEM quality: almost impossible

Sizing and cutting: easy and expensive or cheap and hard.

installing: easy...for a watchsmith.

That being said: If you can provide me w/ an actual DW from the rep you want the correct font for, identify and procure the correct font, provide sseveral closeups pictures of the date window of the OEM watch, precisely measure the rep's date window, I can have a better-than-ghetto version for you in about three days.

Anybody willing to photoshop the corrections in text format pointing to the problem areas?

Here is an overlay of the above pics of the OEM and the prototype. I found this technique very helpful when I was working on the DW overlay project, because overlays don't lie, the way side by side comparisons can.

Of course you'll have to do this yourself from a scan of the sample dial, thigh higher res the better, and as dead-on-fro- the-front pic of the OEM as you can find. I tweaked the perspective on the pics to get them both as straight as possible, but there is no way to get the sample dial pic aligned accuratetly...the dial was leaning too much on the surface. Foir that reason, this overlay won't be all that useful. To do an overlay:

Scan the sample dial as straight and in as high a resolution as possible. Save the scanned image.

find a pic of an OEM dial as dead-on from the front as possible. The one above is pretty good if you cant find better. Let me know if you'd like me to adjust that image so it is straight on.

1)Open the pics of the OEM and the image of the scanned dial.

2)Crop both images (use the crop tool in photoshop in the tools pallate) so that only the dials are visible.

3)Make a new document that fits both images .

4) on the OEM dial image "Edit>"select all" then "copy" and "edit>copy" Then open the new image and click "edit>paste"

5)Repeat this with scanne sample dial image. It should automatically paste directly over the OEM image.

6)In the layers window select the second layer, which should be the sample dial scan

7)Slide the "opacity" slider to the left until both images are clearly visible.

8)At this point you may need to resize the sample dial scan. Click edit>transform>scale and adjust the bounding box until the a specific part of the images (I used the #9) line up.

If the picture and scans are fairly straight, you should have a fairly useful overlay. If you can get me straight on high res scan of the sample dial I can do this for you.

From my quick and dirty overlay I would certainly check the following:

Did they use the right "font?" for the numbers? It looks like each number on the OEM dial is all solid with no "cutout" areas?

The position of "Cartier" and "Automatic" needs to be checked. Also the size of "automatic."

The numbers look slightly thin to me, especially the thinner lines on each number.

Just from the pic of the sample dial, the ink application looks not to crisp or even, although that may be the pic.

Also keep in mind the OEM dial is enameled solid silver, which I believe would create a slight shiny and almost translucent silvery appearance to the white areas.? Can this be duplicated somehow?

All in all, a GREAT start. How do we go about reserving one of these?

Yes! And signed by Mr. P. Filip...

You are right...I will calm down...

BTW, the choice is only partly mine... The reason I ordered this particular model as my first purchase was the research I did on this forum about the replicas worth buying, and their reviews... So thanks everyone!

No, that's what happens when you buy a gen...you get a watch signed by P. Filip with lots of chinese parts. There's an interesting piece in the back of this months WT. Prior to 1992, you could stamp swiss made on a watch even if it was assembled in China as long as 50% or more of the value of the parts were made in swittzerland. Currently you can put "Swiss Made" on a watch as long as 50% or more of the movement parts are made in Switzerland and the movement is cased in Switzerland. Realizing what a joke that is they just passed a rule requiring that the R&D for a watch be done is Switzerland, 80% of the movement parts' value comprise Swiss-Made parts, and the movement and watch must be assembled in Switzerland. That's more like it, but what it means is that now there are a lot of Gen snobs with a bunch of Chinese parts and craftsmanship strapped to their wrists...

I'll bet $100 that 9 out of 10 Fall Fashion releases are steel sports watches with black dials and bracelets. Any takers?

I've recieved one piece of good news and one piece of bad news: The ROO w/ seconds @ 12 will probably happen, and the rumored rep w/ the best price ratio/potential accuracy/modibility, the Muller King Conquistador Chrono, probably wont.

A 3035 powered sub? $2500 for a 3035 powered sub rep would be the most idiotic watch ever made. You can make a 2836 powered rep nobody will ever call you out on w/ gen dial, hands(broaching/glueing anyone?), crystal, crown and clasp and maybe even bracelet for $1000 less; a 3035 powered franken with all gen parts sans case for about the same money if you're willing to make the effort; or buy a used gen sub for a couple hundred bucks more.

I love the Blackbird, but worring about the pearl and the markers is like worring about a dent on you car door when the wheels are missing. The gen would have different subdial spacing as well as asymetric pushers, which means from the front AND the side, it's a non starter for accuracy nuts. However, thses flaws make it about the same as the majority of other reps--for people who don't know it might as well be gen. For a collector, it's an instant spot.I love the Blackbird, but worring about the pearl and the markers is like worring about a dent on you car door when the wheels are missing. The gen would have different subdial spacing as well as asymetric pushers, which means from the front AND the side, it's a non starter for accuracy nuts. However, thses flaws make it about the same as the majority of other reps--for people who don't know it might as well be gen. For a collector, it's an instant spot.

this thing still going on??! I want in.. What forms of payment are acceptable?

Can you tell us what shipping/insurance method will be used for the $30 reflected in the paypal request?

The 50/51 has the potential to be one of the top 3 or 4 PAM reps in terms of accuracy. Out of the box, the case, CG, and crown are nearly 1:1, the caseback is accurate and individually numbered, the datewheel is printed w/ the correct font, and the flaw (the A's) is less noticeable on the 50/51 than on the 44mm PAMs. The only real flaws are lack of AR and slightly deficient date mag.

I lucked out and ran accross an OEM 40mm CG for my 51, but that is by no means an essential mod--the only function it serves is making the crown look slightly more accurate: the rep's crown is exactly as thick of the gen crown but looks about 1/2mm thinner because the "gap" in the rep CG is bigger than on the gen CG.

Mine is at The Zigmeister now to have a Watchmen cyclopsed/Brian ARed crystal installed, a relume, and a case rebrush. When I get it back, it's going on an OEM brown crock strap w/ OEM brushed deployant, which I hope will make a 49 that's a couple tiny, tiny "A's" away from indistinguishable from gen.

Pics as soon as it'ds done, but here are a couple of the unmodded watch w/ the OEM CG installed.

Do we have confirmation that someone is actually working on this? My amateur guess is that they'll us the same cannon-pin-sticking-through transfer-gears stsyem that they did on the secs @ 6 movement. My other guess is that the seconds will be choppy and the movement plaqued by similar problems as the other transferred secs. movements.

I bet they will not bother with The asymetric pusherswhich will be a fatal flaw for many potential buyers.

I think the ROO is so thick anyway, that the extra thickness of the 7750 won't be a problem if it even is thicker than the JLC + DD module.

When I blow out my candles, I wish the chinese would quit wasting their engineering skills screwing up 7750's and just design a new movement that has that either has running seconds at 6 (which can be used in a lot of watches, including big-sellers like the daytona and Royal Oak Chrono) or a movement that copies the subdial placement of the el primero which would open another whole world of reps.

The ROO is a nice watch, but IMO not nice enough to risk yet another modified (probably asian for me) 7750.

Thanks for the tip on the Caymans. I was wondering if it was still a viable solution.

A viable "solution" for what, would be the relevent question. As I understand it, the Caymans are good for some "solutions" and not as good as other places for other "solutions."

My thoughts and prayers are w/ you and yours. As your post shows, your dad undoubtedly knew he raised a fine son and I bet that greatest comfort of all during these last, hard months.

Besides, while one writer hones his style on yet-another-Steelfish review, he could well be learning the ropes to write the definitive replica Panerai guide ...

Very true...

I've been away for the Labor Day weekend, so here's the answer...

Great guess, emuozz! Here it is, including a wrist shot! Thanks for the compliment! I'll have another one coming up soon! Come on people, post up some of your gens! Lets keep this going!

Another great Jeager, the best values in high end watches (If you can use "value" and "high end watches" together). Bet the purchase price of that one was 1/3 the street price of a comparable VC or Patek, neither of which have any advantage in fit and finish at all, only name cachet.

Well, the way my family gatherings work, the watch and it's owner would have become the brunt of the day's vicious joke...probably the watch would be passed around all day with each wearer loudly saying in a Charles Emerson Winchester III voice, "And so I bought a new Roooooolex..." But then again my family is made up of a bunch of anti-taste rubes who think they're all comedians. So consider yourself lucky that you guys actually use tact with eachother.

If I were in an in-law situation, though, I would have said, "You know, I think you can get a lot better replica Rolexes than that for less than $100. Let mepoke around the web and I'll shoot you a link."

I plead guilty to this, and I agree that reviews and even my collection posts are important to the board.

I think the number of reads and responses per review and picture threads would increase if reviewers and pic takers were a little more strategic: What happens is that when a hot new rep starts shipping you get a bunch of reviews and pics added to multiple reviews of other very popular watches--however great each review is on it's own, the responses get diluted among all of them. I'd reckon that 10 watches--the BCE and SFSO, a couple each IWC's, rolexes and PAMs--account for 80% of the reviews posted at any given time. After all, how much more can be said about the same watch in 4 threads? No matter how much I love the watches and the posters, I tend not to open threads called "My new SFSO from Angus" or "Wristshots of the 2006 Cousteau" Do you?

The other problem, which is going to be hard to get around is that, thanks to the "collectors'" strategy of hyping new watches far in advance from prototype pics, most watches get thoroughly pre-reviewed before they are even released. That certainly limits the possibilities of our "amateur" reviews later on.

I would suggest (and will begin to practice what I preach) that instead of duplicating well reviewed and photographed watches we choose something different--a blast form the past, a watch you think is great but under-appreciated, even a watch you're sorry you bought. It is as useful to review a not-so-good watch as a stunningly good watch, al la kruzer00's review of the latest Swiss 187.

Well, at 500 hours and $40,000 of car and phones this guy was making $800 per hour for his work. Now that is a profitable IT job. And if it does get him laid - priceless.

Which is about 1/10 what he should have demanded when he was approached by the CEO of a cell phone refurbishing company wanting to give him a car for his phone...but, hey, he's only 17 and has the rest of his life to figure things out...

Politics are a corrosive. They corrode everything around one, ruining the atmosphere forever.

Politics exists whenever 2 or more people are in proximity, and always has. Each of us is faced with a choice: We can participate in whatever political process our time and place has chosen for us, doing our part to make it consistent with our beliefs, or we can be cavalier and cynical about it and just let Halliburtons of the world run governments. Because believe me, they haven't written politics off.

BTW, I didn';t need to take the test to know I was...

Economic Left/Right: -8.88

Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.82

The railmaster LE looks nice in the pics, and if you want a chrono, I can tell you from experience that the TT Navi gold color is very accurate side by w/ gen.

Were they repping watches way back then? maybe he got it from EL's great-grandfather

I remember a post a long time ago where someone (it may have been me for all I remember) linked to an auction catalogue that listed 19th Century reps of Breguet and VC pocket watches. I imagine the first knock offs appeared weeks after the first tru "luxury brand" was created...and I bet that date has a "BC" in front of it.

congrats on your Gen, corgi! Sounds like if there is away to confirm the "school movement" think it may be worth more than $300 since there would be a specialty collectors market for it!

Since I usually forgret to set my watch before I leave, I usually just ask someone on the Metro.

A really good Pre 2A dial. would be awsome. but for 120 EURO it better be good !!

We're all going to have our pet dials (063, 2B etc for me) but I would venture a guess that a 1:1 logo dial--correct A's, correct lume, crisp printing--would sell in the dozens within days--lot's of 005 reps w/ accurate solid backs floating around.