The CL888 movement: Swiss or Clone?

[szvwj]

I know there's been some discussion on other forums about this, but I didn't see anything here. I'm interested in your opinions.

There was a sale on the Jacques Lemans GU223D yesterday. The price seemed great for a watch with an automatic Swiss movement ($168 shipped), so I ordered one. In the mean time, I sent an email to Jacques Lemans asking exactly what movement was in the watch (on their website all they say is that it's Swiss). The response was:

"Hello -The below mentioned styles comes with a Swiss Made automatic movement , caliber CL888"

Not being familiar with that particular movement, I did some research.

It's a very interesting movement, which seems to blur the line between what's a clone and what's Swiss. Technically it's Swiss (according to the strictest definition), but it appears to be (essentially) a ST-16.

I don't know how to feel about this. Part of me doesn't care if it's a clone (I own several for gosh sakes), but the other part of me doesn't like that they're buying most of the parts from China and only doing some of the work in Switzerland (only enough to make it technically SWISS).

I wonder if more (low end) manufacturers will start doing this. I, personally, find it a bit misleading, but it comes down to the definition of WHAT IS SWISS.

Here's a link to more information about the CL888 if you're interested: http://amateureconblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/is-claro-888-eta-2824-clone.html

[FxrAndy]

To me that is just a DG2813, asian 21j it has nothing in its design that even related to ETa or 2836.

Sorry mate, It dont even know what swiss cheese smells like

I would evwen be tempoted to report them for missuse of the swiss made naming, if it weree not for the fact that my email addy is linked to 6582 posts here, may be deamed a bit hipocritical

[szvwj]

What sucks is that a 2813 has 21 jewels, the CL888 only has 18!

What's stopping someone from moving to Switzerland, buying Chinese movements, tearing them down, cleaning them up and re-assemble them using a few new parts (Oscillating weight, for example) and legally calling them SWISS movements? It sounds like that's essentially what's going on here.

[FxrAndy]

I doupt they even pass through switzerland and if they do i doupt they are taken apart at all

[seymur]

This is how world now turns on... Teh that why high grade swiss watch companies starting ignore swiss made naming useing ....

[emuozz]

What sucks is that a 2813 has 21 jewels, the CL888 only has 18!What's stopping someone from moving to Switzerland, buying Chinese movements, tearing them down, cleaning them up and re-assemble them using a few new parts (Oscillating weight, for example) and legally calling them SWISS movements? It sounds like that's essentially what's going on here.

More jewels, doesn´t imply a better movement.

The CL 888 is a seagull st-16, 21.600 vph, seiko stile bi-directional winding, with sandblasted plates (that would be the swiss part).

And, as FxrAndy says under no circunstance a clone of a swiss movement, the Seagull St-16, Dixmont Guangzhou 2813/4813 and Naning 28/38 are "inspired" on miyota 8205/8215.

Edited August 28, 2009 by emuozz

[szvwj]

The CL 888 is a seagull st-16, 21.600 vph, seiko stile bi-directional winding, with sandblasted plates (that would be the swiss part).

Thanks for the clarification. I understand now that the ST-16 is NOT a clone movement.

I'm curious to know how you feel about the fact that an ST-16 is 'massaged' in Switzerland and labeled as a 'SWISS MADE' CL888?

[FxrAndy]

I think it is very bad form, Some of my watch movememnts originate in asia but I would never say they were german unless they have been extencivly reworked and by that i mean a months custom work, just simply having then in a box passing through a border does not make it swiss.

[szvwj]

I think it is very bad form

I agree, it dilutes (and devalues) the 'SWISS MADE' label.

[Pugwash]

Here are the rules of when a watch is Swiss or not.

A Swiss watch

Only when it is Swiss, may a watch carry the indications "Swiss made" or "Swiss", or any other expression containing the word "Swiss" or its translation, on the outside. According to Section 1a OSM, a watch is considered to be Swiss if:

• its movement is Swiss;
  
• its movement is cased up in Switzerland;
  
• and the manufacturer carries out the final inspection in Switzerland.
  
  A Swiss watch movement
  As we have seen, to be Swiss, a watch must use a Swiss movement. According to Section 2 OSM, a movement is considered to be Swiss if:
  
  • it has been assembled in Switzerland;
    
  • it has been inspected by the manufacturer in Switzerland; and
    
  • the components of Swiss manufacture account for at least 50 percent of the total value, without taking into account the cost of assembly.
    

  If the movement fulfills these conditions, but the watch is not assembled in Switzerland, the "Swiss" indication may be affixed to one of the components of the movement. On the outside of the watch, may then only appear the "mouvement suisse" or "Swiss movement" indication. Section 3 § 3 OSM requires that the word "movement" appear in full, and be written in the same type-face, of identical size and colour, as the word "Swiss".

  http://www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php

[emuozz]

So, they basically receive the St -16 ebauches, that probably costs $7, then do some "decoration" to the movement that it's more expensive than $7, then assembly the movements put them in a case that can come from anywhere(?) and inspect them and sell them as a Swiss watch and charge $400 for that, great deal for Jacques Lemans. Well that is marketing at its best.