Vintage Pam Project...

[rmcsherry]

I'm thinking of starting a vintage pam project, and would like some advice on the movements. I wanted to do a PAM203 but the Angelus movement will be too expensive for me to take on. I'm not expecting a vintage project to be cheap, but wondered if a Marina Militare project may be more straight forwards?!

I've been having a look for a while at vintage Rolex movements, Cortebert 618's and Molnija movements and can't decide on the best way forwards. A Cortebert would be preferable to Molnija because I'm not keen on the bizaar Russian engraving, but the price can't really be justified as they are basically the same movements from the same tooling. Is there any advice anyone can give me on starting such a project - I'd rather get the movement sorted out first, and then invest in a decent case / dial. Thanks for reading.

[Finepics]

I'm thinking of starting a vintage pam project, and would like some advice on the movements. I wanted to do a PAM203 but the Angelus movement will be too expensive for me to take on. I'm not expecting a vintage project to be cheap, but wondered if a Marina Militare project may be more straight forwards?!

I've been having a look for a while at vintage Rolex movements, Cortebert 618's and Molnija movements and can't decide on the best way forwards. A Cortebert would be preferable to Molnija because I'm not keen on the bizaar Russian engraving, but the price can't really be justified as they are basically the same movements from the same tooling. Is there any advice anyone can give me on starting such a project - I'd rather get the movement sorted out first, and then invest in a decent case / dial. Thanks for reading.

You are very unlikely to find a Cortebert 618 as from my research it would seem that this design was exclusive to Rolex and also was a slightly different design to the usual Cortebert layout. The Molnija is actually based on the Cortebert 616 calibre which is almost identical to the 618 with the exception of the shape of the escape wheel bridge plate and a slight difference in the going train centre plate.

These movts do come up on ebay occasionally in pocketwatches and the price can really vary from £50-£200 depending on the watch case they are in.

Here is one of my 616's fitted into my MM 6152:

and here is the real thing:

Actually you can see the dowel peg holes for the Cortebert escape wheel plate just to the left of the balance wheel so clearly the movt has the same top plate. I suspect this simple cosmetic change was made so that it differentiated it visually from the Corteberts. Notice these also have 15 jewels with the centre wheel running in a brass bearing. Later versons of the 618 had a jewelled centre wheel and the movt was marked as having 17 jewels.

The Molnija's from the late 1950's and 60's were much better made and finished than the current versions and a lot have nice geneve striping with very little marking on the plates and the balance wheel has the adjustment weights (which you cannot see in these pics as both movts are running) like the Cort/Rolex. They are very cheap usually so you can afford to almost throw them away. One of our members here got one for .99 euros although it turned out to be unusable. Be careful to look at the regulatuer arm as many of the Moli's had a short stubby arm rather than a pointer. The only problem I have come across with the early Molnijas is that the cannon pinion is a different size from the current ones and they are not interchangeable. However the cannon pinion on the Cort is also a different size but the hour wheel is the same so your minute hand selection will need some bodging!!!

[madasboot]

From what I was told the cal. 618 is almost impossible to find.

That is the opinion of 3 seasoned watchsmiths I talked to during my sourcing adventures.

The only one that has seen one of those was the eldest of the 3 and it was about 50 years ago on a vintage (even then!) Rolex Military pocket watch!

As far as I know, Cortebért Cal. 616 (15 jewels) mvmts were frequently "used" by Rolex and you can see them used by Panerai.

But those are also getting rare!!!

You can see reference of the 616s here:

http://www.knirim.de/xpane.pdf

Dont forget if you need someone to help you on upgrading your watch, or helping on your projects, Finepics will be the right man.

Cheers

M.

[vlaletom]

I am trying to do such a project myself.

So far here is the info i am basing my project on

actualy various caliber can be used

the angelusis 240 is very nice because of the 8 days power reserver

Here I show some 16 ''' (34mm) movements related to Rolex, Panerai and reps:

- top: 2 Rolex cal. 618 made by Cortebert exclusively for Rolex in the 30s and 40s.

- 2.row: 2 Cortebert 616 only bridges and finish are different

- 3.row: left Molnia 616 licensed by Cortebert, and right Unitas 6498 (made in Asia) for Panerai reps!!

- bottom: 2 Panerai movements, luxury derivates of the Unitas cal. 6498. The right one has changed bridges and swan neck adjustment.

the cortebert 1620 is olso the exact same size as the 616/618 a drop in for those project

i know it is possible to use some cortebert 592 R in radiomir with a little case adjustemnt: (to expend the case so it fit a 17,5''), should be no trouble in a 47mn case, as shown in this example :

here from left to right is 592R 528 620 , the upper center one is a 528 (a more finished 526)

finally here is a link that list various corteberts :

Corteberts references

hope this help

Edited August 30, 2006 by vlaletom

[rmcsherry]

Thanks guys, I wasn't expecting that many thorough answers. I've been looking on ebay - I've got 3 Angelus travel clocks and a vintage Rolex on the way for less than £30 for all of them! I doubt any of them are what I'm looking for, but the resale value should help to fund the vintage project. I'll let you know how I get on, and many thanks for the useful information so far.

[oswald]

Here's one I've been fooling with:

It started out as a cheap CN fiddy and I fooled around with it a bit and made it a vintage base destro. The only weird thing was making the plexi crystal for it because the original just exploded on me I still need to go into it because the dial is rotated slightly to the left.

As for movements, I'd go with one of the molinja mov'ts in a MM rep. They already have ROLEX engraved and only a PAM or Rolex freak could tell the difference especially if you deblued the screws. Look at Joshs site, he has a few for below $200.

I'll post some pics of the strap when I put another 40 years on it

[Finepics]

Thanks guys, I wasn't expecting that many thorough answers. I've been looking on ebay - I've got 3 Angelus travel clocks and a vintage Rolex on the way for less than £30 for all of them! I doubt any of them are what I'm looking for, but the resale value should help to fund the vintage project. I'll let you know how I get on, and many thanks for the useful information so far.

I can tell you now that if the Angelus clocks have a caseback that is over 1cm thick they will not be right. I have been scouring the bay for weeks and have never seen one that is right yet. I also bought a couple before I found out the hard way (and spent £80 on one of them) however all is not lost as one of them is in absolutely perfect condition and runs sweetly despite being over 60 years old and cost me £15 - it's so nice that I'm keeping it as a desk clock. Going to re-lume it too!! Good luck with the hunting - let me know when you find something as I might be able to help with the install if you are unsure what to do.

[rmcsherry]

Thanks a lot - I'm sure it'll be months before I get one that's right, but I'll definetly be needing some help from you along the way!