Daylight (Not Robbery) Investigation

[DocRaph]

Hi All,

Been away from home for a while sorting out family problems but all sorted and back again.

I recently acquired a PAM 251 from Panther917, which I think tracks back via hackR to Rollie.

Anyway... as per the normal "how do I make this better" thoughts, I decided to do a little researching, both via posts and other web sites.

One thing that seemed to recur frequently was the matter of how the dials of the various Daylights should look and what differences there are between them.

First I located a number of images on one of my favorite UK jewelers web sites - they photograph every watch they get in with lovely detail...it really is a good reference source.

Sure enough, there were quite a few Daylights there, so I borrowed some images for demonstration.

First off, comparing the PAM196 (G series) with a PAM250 (J series):-

-

Then the PAM188 (I series) with a PAM251 (I series again - right on switchover) :-

-

You can see that there are quite a few differences between the early (188/196) and later models (250/251) -

The small seconds and chrono minutes subdials and hands on the 188/196 are larger than those of the 250/251 models - chrono hours is the same size as later models.

The printing on the dials of the later 250/251 models appears larger and thicker.

The date wheels are interesting in that the 188, 196 and 250 have a thick font, but the 251 appears to be quite thin and to me seems slightly larger.

Also, because of the recessed subdials in the later 250/251 models making the dial thicker, you can clearly see that the datewheels appear sunken compared to the earlier models, where they appear flush with the bottom of the dial.

The "L SWISS MADE L" font is larger on the later 250/251 models and seems to be placed further from the edge.

The dial of the 251 is really an Ivory (off-white) color, as indicated in the Panerai literature, which is a contrast with the bright white of the earlier 188.

One thing of interest to me is the bezel markings.

From the images you can clearly see that only the 196 has a bezel marked with TACHYMETRE while the others are marked TACHYMETER.

I thought this went against everything I've come across in these posts until I found a couple of earlier 188's, and sure enough :-

As you can see it reads TACHYMETRE.

It seems that Panerai appear to have changed the bezel markings from about the I series.

I have yet to find any images of the later models marked TACHYMETRE yet.

As an example of rep markings, I've borrowed a picture of my 251 (via hackR) until I take some images myself :-

Faults I have so far come across:-

'T SWISS MADE T' ??

Sunken date wheel as per normal modified A7750 - although the font is not so far away from the gen, it is smaller and set ever so slightly in.

Dial printing seems too small and the 'Daylight Luminor Panerai' too high.

The worst problem, which isn't visible, with my rep is that it is fitted with a PAM196 back, but more of that some other post.

In the ultimate mod, installing an ETA 7753 would require a matching dial, hopefully with more accurate markings.

I could modify the existing dial - the spacing for the sub hands is OK, and doing a bit of playing with Photoshop layers hints that the date window could be slightly offset enlarged to show the larger font of the 7753 datewheel.

Hope this answers the questions a few people have asked in the past about the Daylight dials and markings - certainly a good topic for discussion.

Anyone interested in the source website PM me.

A couple more projects I have been working on are well under way - the ultimate Panerai catalog, and a spreadsheet with all model details.

Anybody interested, I'm missing a lot of data - could be a joint venture.

Cheers, DR

[DocRaph]

OK, here's a bit more -

First, took a few photos of the rep 251 and picked a straight dial image:-

Imported that into Photoshop and overlaid a dial from the gen 251 which colorized red, set to about 44% transparency :-

Then finally took the PAM251 gen image into photoshop and overlaid a PAM250 gen dial set at about 40% transparency :-

This all took a bit of matching - none of the images were the same size so they all had to be made the same, then it was a case of aligning everything up - for this I used the centers of the hands (main and subdials).

Rep V Gen PAM251 -

Amazingly, the circular hour markers on this particular dial are a good match to the gen - usually they are too big.

The printed LUMINOR and PANERAI are almost aligned, but on the rep are of a slightly smaller font than gen.

The printed Daylight matches for size, but is lower on the gen.

Chrono minutes subdial numerals are far too small on the rep.

The date window is larger and offset slightly further out on the gen.

Rep DW font is not bad, but slightly smaller than gen - it fills the date window much more.

Last - the T SWISS MADE T is obviously incorrect, but the printing does almost match gen.

Gen PAM251 V PAM250 -

As I thought, the DW font is much thicker on the PAM250 than the PAM251, however, contrary to what I thought, the date windows are the same size - must be an optical illusion caused by the difference in fonts.

Now all I need is to get a decent image of a rep PAM250 to carry out the same comparison.

I'll post more when I can.

Cheers, DR

[DocRaph]

On a bit further -

I looked for some images of the movements themselves - although there are plenty of 7750 images around, there are very few of the 7753 (the image OFrei uses is just a 7750 without the day wheel!!!??)

Eventually got around to looking at the ETA site and ...Bingo!!.. a few screen captures later and:-

ETA 7750 -

followed by,

ETA 7753 -

Apologies for small resolution, but the best I could do at the time

The movements are both 13 1/4 lignes in size, measuring 30mm diameter, and 7.90mm thick.

In essence, the 7753 is a derivation of the original 7750, but with the chrono minutes counter moved from the 12 o'clock position to the 3 o'clock position.

The way this has been done is to remove the day wheel and drive gears, and replace them with the drive to the chrono minutes - everything else appears to be the same, except you can no longer change the date using the crown - there's a lever located between 9 o'clock and 10 o'clock on the side of the movement, usually activated by a button on the side of whatever casing the movement is in.

Printed out, both sets of images are exactly the same size, so knowing the real diameter of the movement, I managed to get a few measurements from the prints (when I finally get hold of a 7753 movement I'll let you know how accurate these are).

First a composite showing the front of both movements:-

Looking at the composite, you can see the major differences immediately - no day wheel on the 7753, and chrono minutes moved to 3:00.

What is less obvious is that the date wheel is larger in diameter, but not in width - the visual clue is that the date wheel on the 7753 is closer to the outside of the movement than that of the 7750.

My simplified measurements show that width of both is 3.25mm, OD of the 7750 at 25.0mm and that of the 7753 is 26.0mm (1.0mm larger).

This means that any date window for the 7753 movement would have to be 0.5mm further from the center of the face than that for a 7750 movement.

---Which provides the figures that backs up what all the experienced members have been commenting for some time - the 7753 DW's are larger than 7750 DW's and need a different dial.

That's all for now folks...

Cheers, DR

[Watchmeister]

Doc-

This is an excellent summary of the whole Daylight series. And you are definitely right that a 7753 requires a different dial from the 7750 and the datewheels are not interchangeable. On a different note I had Ziggy service a gendaylight at the same time he did one of my Rep/Frankens and according to him the the movement rework was significantly more so than the hand winds including a three part protective tube inserted into the case to ensure proper functionality of the date change. Just for fun here are the Daylights I have had over the years. Scary, isn't it.

[DocRaph]

Now that Panda dial Daylight I really like - I did come across various rumors that Panerai did actually produce one, either as a prototype, or a one-off...there are lots of 'missing' PAM numbers after all.

The contrasting subdials was one of the reasons I got a PAM168 - really stands out.

The differences between the ETA 7750 and 7753 I've probably oversimplified - after all, it did take ETA a few years to come up with the modification - apparently it was supposed to be a 'mass' produced movement to replace expensive ones like Zenith, after all, look how popular the 7750 has been.

Hopefully, I'll have a 7753 to play with next month - managed to find a couple of sources here in Europe - but until then I've a couple of custom knife projects to complete, and I want to give the 168 a service - chrono minutes is sticking (might make a photo diary of that for a post in the future) - need to pop into London to get some supplies from Walsh's at Hatton Gardens - I've run out of Rodico, and could do with a new oiler. (somebody told me there was a 'cheaper' version of Rodico, but I've yet to find it).

Happy collecting everybody,

Cheers, DR

[Katerchen]

Nice collection @W

George

[chronoluvvv]

very nice thread, i'm reading it with renewed interest now that i got my first Pam

[zeroshiki]

to topic starter, superb study of the daylight!! thank you!!

Doc-

This is an excellent summary of the whole Daylight series. And you are definitely right that a 7753 requires a different dial from the 7750 and the datewheels are not interchangeable. On a different note I had The Zigmeister service a gendaylight at the same time he did one of my Rep/Frankens and according to him the the movement rework was significantly more so than the hand winds including a three part protective tube inserted into the case to ensure proper functionality of the date change. Just for fun here are the Daylights I have had over the years. Scary, isn't it.

to watchmeister.., thanks for posting pics, awesome daylight collection..

don't know if anyone noticed.., the 196(?) on the left has one too many minute indice on the right side of the '12'.., i was about to get this exact version and switched to 250 instead in the end..

[Watchmeister]

You are right on the extra tick mark on the 196 and the other tell on the dial is that the 6 marker is too tall and too close to the sub-dial. Having said all that I still maintain that that particular dial (and watch) is still the most accurate of all the daylight rep dials. Excellent layout relative to the gen, no improperly recessed sub-dials, no oversized or undersized markers, good number fonts, etc. Look at it relative to the 162 in the picture (it is gen dial) and you will see what I mean.

[babola]

You are right on the extra tick mark on the 196 and the other tell on the dial is that the 6 marker is too tall and too close to the sub-dial. Having said all that I still maintain that that particular dial (and watch) is still the most accurate of all the daylight rep dials. Excellent layout relative to the gen, no improperly recessed sub-dials, no oversized or undersized markers, good number fonts, etc. Look at it relative to the 162 in the picture (it is gen dial) and you will see what I mean.

+1 ...so well put!

I was about to reply tho the thread but no need as you said it all perfectly...exactly my thoughts...all of them.

cheers,

b

[DocRaph]

Hi All,

Just scouting around, managed to download some interesting documents from ETA - the Technical and Manufacturing Design specifications for the 7750 and 7753 movements.

Looking at the dial design drawings, the positions of all hands are identical between the two movements, however the date windows are shown to be different and the measurements are pretty close to those I estimated from the images earlier on.

These are the dimensions, for all who are interested -

7750 -

Centre of dial to edge of date window 9.30

Width of Date Window 2.10

Length of Date Window 2.80

7753 -

Centre of dial to edge of date window 9.75

Width of Date Window 2.20

Length of Date Window 2.90

Dimensions of the Date Wheels -

7750 (part number Z0112745) -

Diameter 24.60

Width 6.20

Thickness 0.500

7753 (part number Z0028011) -

Diameter 25.60

Width 6.30

Thickness 0.308

Interesting reading those documents - they also have all of the part numbers, together with assembly drawings.

I still haven't got the 7753 movement to have a look at yet, but while waiting decided to service my 251 as there were a couple of annoying problems - the chrono minute counter was occasionally stopping at around 20 minutes, and the date wheel appeared loose in that it would move around slightly while wearing the watch (strange - especially as it was keeping the correct date....)

Stripped the movement out of the watch - all went well until I removed the dial ------

from what I can see it looks like an earlier owner had fitted another date wheel, except the replacement is slightly too thick and the inner edge catches the transfer gears which drive the chrono minute hand.

There are a few more horrors to the movement, but I'll cover that in a separate post with pictures...........

Cheers, DR

[DocRaph]

Going back to one of my earlier posts, here are the differences between the 7750 and 7753 movements.

The Basic movement assembly and Chronograph assemblies are identical for both movements.

The difference is in the Date assembly -

First the 7750 (note both date and day wheels present);

Then the 7753 ;

As you can see, they are very different.

In order to move the chrono minutes hand from 12 to 3 ETA have completely removed the day wheel and driver to make room to install an extra two gears taking the drive from the original 12 position to the 3 position, however to place these gears below the date wheel they have totally re-designed the mounting plate (unlike the A7750 copy where the gears are above the date wheel).

You can also see the additional lever to change the date wheel (at the 10 position), possibly needed as the date changer has moved position away from the crown.

The ETA technical manuals make for interesting reading, and are free to download...well worth it if you have a watch with one of these movements.

If anybody has any problems getting hold of them, let me know and I will attach them to a post here.

Ah well...back to work.

Cheers, DR

[budo]

This is the one of the best threads I have read in a long time. There's so many aspects of the Daylight 7750/7753 thing, so it's great that you'r going through it

What I'd love to see here, is pics from a movement swap 7750 to 7753, if anyone have done it and documented it. Espessialy some closeups on the datechange button and pusher

Thanks for the interresting work.