HauteHippie Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 AP ROO frankens are starting to become more and more popular. As I studied some of the finer details, I'd become certain that a couple tells were still readily apparent between a franken and a gen - much more apparent than the < 1mm difference in case thickness. The first was at the end links. In most pictures I've seen of gens, the end links are tight to the case. Tolerances look precise. To be expected from a $18000 watch. With the rep, in comparison, it's common to see small gaps. The end links on reps seem sloppy and loose compared to the gen. However, I now direct you to picture #1 below of a gen white themes. Notice the gaps between end links and case. So much for that theory!! The second was the cyclops. In so many pictures, the gen cyclops appears to have a good AR coating that inhibits reflections, whereas the rep does not. In fact, with the rep, it is sometimes hard to even make out the date, depending on ambient lighting conditions! Well, I direct you to pictures #2 and #3 below. Notice in picture 2, the date is very difficult to read under all the reflections. This cyclops does not look AR coated to me. Notice further in picture 3, that you can actually see the reflection of the photographer in the cyclops. He appears to be standing in front of a window, and you can see the light reflections from behind him. And now picture #4. This time a white rubber clad. Same photographer. Presumably same lighting conditions (maybe not). But look at this cyclops. Totally reflection-free! Wow, what a difference from the white themes! So we already know there are date font variations based on movement generation. And it's pretty clear now, that at some point fairly recently AP started putting AR on the DW cyclops, as an improvement. I suspect, but can't verify, that newer gen AP ROOs with AR are using a sapphire cyclops, compared to plastic on the rep. I think it all goes to show that some of the details we obsess over need not be an obsession! The variation in even an $18k gen is quite remarkable.... PICTURE #1 PICTURE #2 PICTURE #3 PICTURE #4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiker01 Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Good one chief! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jkay Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 I agree that a certain undeserved "Holiness" is sometimes attributed to Gens, especially Panerai. I have seen my share of Gens with protruding crown levers, non-flush CP, and non-flush CG pins .. but many would have you believe that if your rep does not have these "fixes" that they are imperfect, wrong and should be shunned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asf Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Thanks for putting the comparison side by side in a way. it really polarizes that the reps are scary close! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Great post. With all the variations of ROO's over the years and the changes there is a good amount of variance. Most people don't know that even the dimensions of the watch changed when AP went to an in-house movement when they sold their stake in JLC. In truth the instant tells on the newer models with revised tachy ring for better date placement are either microscopic or difficult to discern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted September 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 I might add another "tell". Bezel screws... on the reps, it's common to see variation on the slot width of the bezel screws. Most gens seem to have consistently machined screws without any variation in the driver slot width. But!! Take a look at the rubber clad above. It sure looks to me that the slot on the 11:00 screw head is wider than the slot on the 1:00 screw head. Much like we see on our reps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dylan Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Great post chief! For me its the rep bezel screws that drive me crazy. I can deal with all the other rep imperfections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobster Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Wow, great observations here. It is true, many gens have flaws too. Panerai, IWC, Rolex are brands where I have seen small issues with placement of parts, lume, non-precise finishes etc. We just get too paranoid about our reps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted September 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Great post chief! For me its the rep bezel screws that drive me crazy. I can deal with all the other rep imperfections. The bezel screws on reps can drive me crazy as well. Use those "QC pics" from your dealer to reject any APROOs with major gaps between the screw heads and the bezel. Although I have a seen a gen or two with gaps, it's very uncommon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sander Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Well the end links on the rep are a better fit than the gen..... uhhhh it actually depents on how it's designed. The rep ones are very tight and the gen ones have a gap. If you want a gen look and feel use the AP bands end links. They cost a lot but do the job. The AR on the cyclops is just something they have added to the later models. The problem with the bezel screws can be solved by re-brushing the bezel. The holes will look sharper and tighter to the screws. The hight of the screws can be solved with small dial washers. Just add as many as you need. You can also use thin pices of aluminum foil. After the case back is tightned, I always check the bezel screw if it's straight. If not (about 90% of the time) I give it a little twist with a screwdriver to fix it. For me the biggest tell is the date wheel. It would be great if someone can make an off-white model whith the right font and thickness. (for the ETA 2892-A2 model) To fixed bezel screws: (the first pic also has AP Bands end links) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Sander- Great stuff. Interestingly, I am finding they are even improving the bezel screw set up. The Chronopassion actually has little rubber washers in the bezel screw holes to keep them better in place. I just wish my gen older Royal Oak did too. The screws on that one are all askew and at different heights - compliments of an AD a number of years ago. The thinner Royal Oaks seem to be a simpler long screw set up so they move all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted September 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 For me the biggest tell is the date wheel. It would be great if someone can make an off-white model whith the right font and thickness. (for the ETA 2892-A2 model) I hope to work with Taka on this. Actually there are two variations of gen DWs. One with a fairly white background (I have one in the flesh), and one with an ivory background. So there's some difference there too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chronoluvvv Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 nice work guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pizzanooo Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 The bezel screws on reps can drive me crazy as well. Use those "QC pics" from your dealer to reject any APROOs with major gaps between the screw heads and the bezel. Although I have a seen a gen or two with gaps, it's very uncommon. Amen, picked up a Roo a few months ago and rejected the first 2 QC watches. Let the dealer know if that`s the best they have to cancel the order. 2 days later badda bing, 3rd watch was almost perfect in that dept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 I hope to work with Taka on this. Actually there are two variations of gen DWs. One with a fairly white background (I have one in the flesh), and one with an ivory background. So there's some difference there too. On the datewheels it is my belief that the differences in datewheels is predominantly due to switching over to the in-house movement. All the JLC movements appear to have the standard JLC white background. All the numerical subtleties and off-white (not all the datewheels on the in-house movement are off-white though) seem to have come on the newer movement. To make things even more complex some of the older version ROO's which are still made seem to have the original JLC movement, datewheel and slightly thinner profile. So even today not all ROO's are created equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dylan Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 (edited) Sander- Great stuff. Interestingly, I am finding they are even improving the bezel screw set up. The Chronopassion actually has little rubber washers in the bezel screw holes to keep them better in place. I just wish my gen older Royal Oak did too. The screws on that one are all askew and at different heights - compliments of an AD a number of years ago. The thinner Royal Oaks seem to be a simpler long screw set up so they move all the time. I noticed on a ROO that I bought from a member that indeed black rubbery stuff was sticking out....It drove me crazy...and a member told me it might mess up some of the waterproofing...but visually I couldn't stand it...so I took a toothpick and just scraped and scraped until it stopped poking out of the bezel screw holes...Then I used one of the high compress air thingees that you use to clean keyboards to blow out any little bits of rubber...that was a stupid idea...because next thing I know...the crystal is hazy because the cold air got in and condensed on the inside of the crystal....some light hair dryer action and sitting it out in the sun fixed it, it seems... Bottom line: I'm an idiot Edited September 26, 2011 by dylan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dylan Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 (edited) The bezel screws on reps can drive me crazy as well. Use those "QC pics" from your dealer to reject any APROOs with major gaps between the screw heads and the bezel. Although I have a seen a gen or two with gaps, it's very uncommon. Totally agree...with the price of these ROOs, you should get what you want.. although I am very sorry that I'm annoying the dealer...I had him send me several different picks before I chose one.... Trying to go for that slightly recessed, good alignment, same height look...Its really tough!!! This was the best I could do... Edited September 26, 2011 by dylan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsman Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 ^ good choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sander Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 I noticed on a ROO that I bought from a member that indeed black rubbery stuff was sticking out....It drove me crazy...and a member told me it might mess up some of the waterproofing...but visually I couldn't stand it...so I took a toothpick and just scraped and scraped until it stopped poking out of the bezel screw holes...Then I used one of the high compress air thingees that you use to clean keyboards to blow out any little bits of rubber...that was a stupid idea...because next thing I know...the crystal is hazy because the cold air got in and condensed on the inside of the crystal....some light hair dryer action and sitting it out in the sun fixed it, it seems... Bottom line: I'm an idiot That should not be possible because the bezel screws do not have effect on the waterproofing. The gasket for the bezel and the case back is between the movement and the holes for the screws. The only effect it might have is that the screws are loose since you removed the rubber washer. If you tighten the back screws it should be water resistent again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sander Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 I hope to work with Taka on this. Actually there are two variations of gen DWs. One with a fairly white background (I have one in the flesh), and one with an ivory background. So there's some difference there too. It would be great if he can produce them. For me it's the biggest tell. How much for the gen DW? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dylan Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 That should not be possible because the bezel screws do not have effect on the waterproofing. The gasket for the bezel and the case back is between the movement and the holes for the screws. The only effect it might have is that the screws are loose since you removed the rubber washer. If you tighten the back screws it should be water resistent again. Thanks Sander! I don't feel so bad. I wonder why then the crystal got all hazy and condensed. It must have been a coincidence and timing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dylan Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Also...just to be confirm...from what I've seen of the gen...the bezel screws are suppose to be slightly sunken/recessed, correct? Not totally flush with the bezel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted September 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 It would be great if he can produce them. For me it's the biggest tell. How much for the gen DW? The gen DW... I don't recall. Over $100 USD. But don't get to thinking that it will fit in the 2892-A2. :-) I was going to see if Taka would do both 7750 and 2892-A2 versions though. As to color, I would probably just want to do white, and have anyone who finds it necessary to do the coffee ground treatment themselves. I've seen plenty a gen with a white DW, that I don't want to produce off-white only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPN Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Let's not forget there are also the rubber pushers on the ROOs that are a tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted September 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Let's not forget there are also the rubber pushers on the ROOs that are a tell. My post was specifically referring to the finer details not addressed in franken versions. With a franken, it's worth the money to either add genuine pushers, or to mod the rep pushers as follows: http://www.rwg.cc/to...your-ap-pusher/ So that tell is gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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