RWG Technical Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Rollie Submariner with “problems” Got a newer version of the Rolex Submariner, and noted some concerns on this latest model. Pictures take up so much time to get done, that all I can offer is my comments. I am not sure exactly what model this one is or who it was from, but here is some of the stuff I noted… It looks like a standard Sub, and has an ETA 2836-2 inside. · Crystal is a one off special design, and if it ever breaks, your most likely not going to find a replacement. Instead of flush sides where the crystal fits into the case and compression ring, the crystal is stepped down where it goes into the case. In other words, the outer dimension you see when you look at the watch is not the size once the crystal is removed. There is actually a stepped notch cut into the outer circumference of the edge… the problem is, this is a unique design, and finding a replacement crystal is going to be difficult or impossible… it gets really scary when you have to remove the crystal, if it breaks...your FUBAR · Bezel removal. On most models, the bezel does not stick out past the case where the crown guard inner edge is located. So if you wanted to touch up the inner CG edges, you would only have to remove the crown tube and nothing else… On this newest model, the bezel sticks out farther than the inner CG edge and has to be removed for access to the inner CG’s. Problem is that the bezel is secured so tightly that removal is not only extremely difficult, but it always results in the actual bezel assembly getting bent during removal, and damage to the inner edge where the spring seats and the click notched area…this damage requires a lot of time to correct and get straight. What should be an easy job, pop the bezel off, and pop it back on, now turns into a major job trying to fix the parts back to normal after removal… Metal is not always what you think it is…in other words, there are variations in the quality of the Stainless Steel I have also noted some huge variances in the types of metal used on these watches…how I noted this was when I drilled the case hole for the new crown tube installation and tapping on the latest submariner. It was like drilling lead…1 minute and one drill bit to drill all 4 lugholes… easy stuff… The MBW models on the other hand, have whatever type of Stainless Steel that is extremely hard to drill, even with Gold Cobalt drills… Drilling the case lug holes is almost impossible on many MBW’s, in one instance, I broke 7 drill bits off and took 2 hours to drill the 4 holes… (In case you thinking I don’t know how to work with metal, consider that my cousin and I spend many hours in his father’s machine shop (professional machinist) using lathes, milling machines, welding etc, and I have over 25 years working on aircraft and helping with sheet metal repairs… I may not be a machinist but I think I know how to use a drill and cut holes, and buck rivets etc…) One watch breaks 7 bits and takes 2 hours to drill, the other one takes one bit and less than a minute??? Can you say…“One of these things is NOT like the other…” Although the drilling is fun and easy when the metal is just above the hardness of lead, the problem lies with the actual finish on the watch, soft metal = metal prone to scratches… A MBW on the other hand, once modified and polished holds it’s polish very well, these other ones with the soft metal, get scratches just from handling with fingers… Based on this, and not being a metallurgist, it’s not hard to figure out that there are variances in the type of Stainless being used… Seems as if we have taken some steps back with certain models and the quality of the parts in general…whereas the standard run of the mill Submariner a few months ago had a bezel that was easy to snap off, a crystal that could be replaced with an aftermarket one, and hard case metal, what I see now makes me wonder what is going on…why the changes… Just some thoughts from the workbench… Anyone else note this type of stuff? RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchwatcher Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 "I broke 7 drill bits off and took 2 hours to drill the 4 holes… " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted November 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 "I broke 7 drill bits off and took 2 hours to drill the 4 holes… " That was on my own one, can't remember how many I broke off on yours... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRG Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 I've got my Noobmariner apart at the moment to correct a small crystal alignment problem and also to improve the seating of the insert IE lower it. The Date wheel is slightly out as well. I was also looking at the CG's and noticed they are fine at the back but not at the front. Not sure how to tackle them at the moment. Getting the bezel off is a pain, it does not come off easily, I managed it with a lot of fiddling and I think it has become slightly distorted in the process... I've not noted the crystal having a step on mine, just straight sides. I managed to loose a date wheel spring so ordered a new movement form Cousins for US$9! Not bad.... I'll get some pics up when I have more time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnkay Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 The Zigmeister, maybe you can find out from your customer where the watch came from and which version it is, as it would help determine whether this is a new trend or limited to a particular dealer's watches or particular version of same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKTOWN Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 That was on my own one, can't remember how many I broke off on yours... RG Was the drill in reverse mode ??? just kidding that's something I would do. But its amazing the tensil stregnth of certain alloyed stainless steel. Their surface stain resistance can vary considerable do to the amounts of chromium used in alloying , which in turn adds to the strenght of the material..............JKT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Thank you Rob for letting me know that you do this kind of service. By the way, I will be shipping the watches we have discussed next week. Please check your email either today or tomorrow as I have a question for you with regards to a part that is coming to me. I will contact you also some time down the line, once I have collected all the parts needed for my MBW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 I've got my Noobmariner apart at the moment to correct a small crystal alignment problem and also to improve the seating of the insert IE lower it. The Date wheel is slightly out as well. I was also looking at the CG's and noticed they are fine at the back but not at the front. Not sure how to tackle them at the moment. Getting the bezel off is a pain, it does not come off easily, I managed it with a lot of fiddling and I think it has become slightly distorted in the process... I've not noted the crystal having a step on mine, just straight sides. I managed to loose a date wheel spring so ordered a new movement form Cousins for US$9! Not bad.... I'll get some pics up when I have more time... Can you let me know what movement you ordered from cousins? I've ordered a half dozen chinese automatic movements from them to try and retrofit a movement into my play submariners and the date wheel in the window never lines up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFlash Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 ....so our once high quality replica's are now starting to head in the Canal Street quality direction? We need to figure out where this particular replica comes from. Just when it starts to get better, it suddenly gets worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted November 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Just to clarify, as I did in the MBW modification post... I do NOT offer CG mod work, or case drilling etc...it's not my thing, actually I rather poke my eye out with a rusty fork, than do this type of work...what is on my www.ziggyinfo.com pdf file is what I do, no more... I have no interest, and enough to keep me busy with servicing and repairs etc, to not get into metal bashing... I have no idea where the watch was bought, and I dont' think it's fair to name names, as it could be a one-off...but it was a well made model, with the standard ETA etc...nothing that would indicate that it was made of softer metal...that is until you drill it... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Thanks Rob for the clarification! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbj69 Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 just to help u rob, u should drill the lugholes out with a mini drill press machine like i showed u about a year ago, it is very difficult to drill out those lugholes with a drill because it can bend the tiny bits too easily then get them in a bind and boom u broke bits off and if they break off evenly u have a mess and have to drill the broken bit out from the rear so u dont mess up the case outside or scar it (that is why i said that isnt my work on that one piece u tried to say was mine, my bit doesnt walk around cause i use a drill press it is a straight shot only deal not a guesstimate) now on the bezel, this is not new , it just depends on where it came from , the gmtII with the correct stacked hands r different than the chinese ones , hence they r smaller as well in dimensions verses the new submariner being a bit bigger, u have to pry them up from four corners straight up to prevent bending the bezel , u may bend the spring on the inside a bit but not the bezel , it is almost impossible to straighten because it causes it to oval when bend it back,and they r reps and some r way harder than others(then more than likely it will not turn or get hung up in one area but for the lugholes they usually all do about the same on a drill press unless the outside hole is only a dummy hole in a funky angle, which is how the chinese vintage gmt cases r made i have done many and they r all different and some take much more fanagleing than others , i guess it depends on how the guy who threw that particular watch together felt that day, lol hope this helped joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRG Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Apologies for hi-jacking this thread. Here are some pics. of the '21j' Asian, couldn't find many with it in bits. And also the CG's which, like Rob, I've decided not to touch. In the above you can see the back of the CG is sharp and the front rounded due to the milling diameter/position. Nice sharp CG underneath... Here's the '21j' dial side with the date ring and plate removed. As the date is an overlay on the existing date ring it is substantially larger than the date ring itself which causes a problem with the plate screws by overlapping them. So removal of the plate screws becomes a PIA and refitting an even bigger PIA. If you have to get to the Keyless works and dial side gear train be ready for some frustration! Can you spot the missing spring? If you ever want to see a magic trick close up then these hair springs are great, one moment it's there on the end of your tweezers and the next...... ping! It's gone! No where to be seen or heard of again! Here's the Cousins movement DG2831M, Some difference can be noted for the date advance mech. but hey this one has a spring!! In fact I'm not sure if this is a newer version, different version or older The Zigmeister any ideas? Anyhow, it seems slightly better put together and is correctly oiled... all for $9! Looks like a direct drop in replacement... I achieved what I set out to do, get the cyclops/crystal aligned and get the date more aligned in the date window, it's not perfect but...what the heck! With the Keyless works and date mech correctly lube the movment feels much nicer to use, silky smooth as a babys bum! One last problem, the rotor is wrong for this movement. It has a flat key and the movement doesn't! Still works though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbj69 Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 just read the crystal issue as well, it is actually not a odd thing , it is more correct to genuine, im sure u have seen it on the genuine subs u repair, (that is why this particular one doesnt show the ring holding the crystal as much as the older ones u described do and that is why genuine hides the ring as well)(many last year used to complain to see that white crystal ring too much on our replicas which is correct but now they cant complain about that with this styled crystal, i believe the old tw best subs had this same crystal years ago if im not mistaken) and it is snugger and more waterproof imho, i havent yet compared its size to genuine subs yet but it might just be the same size crystal, as well and there r lots of places to get aftermarket ones for it , hope this helps joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 Rollie Submariner with “problems” Just some thoughts from the workbench… Anyone else note this type of stuff? RG Yes. This is the so called Noobmariner in the ETA version I do believe. The Noobmariner has this stepped crystal, and impossibly tight bezel. Been there, done that. Not terribly mod friendly at all. I ruined the first bezel I tried to get off, and noticed my other two were also not going anywhere either... Yea I've accumulated three of these for reasons not entirely known even to myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 just read the crystal issue as well, it is actually not a odd thing , it is more correct to genuine, im sure u have seen it on the genuine subs u repair, Hmmmm, Joe. The genuine sub does not have a stepped-edge crystal like the "Noobmariner". Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbj69 Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 i was looking for the genuine i did some work on for a customer(through my saved pics) and i cant find it at the moment , but i replaced his crystal and it had the same crystal as this link im showing u on it which is alot like the same as the gmt with the correct stacked hands, and the one the so called perfect sub , now like i said i didnt measure them to see if they r exact but it had the same features as the genuine i worked on and as they r selling for genuine here , those ones without that lip r not as tight as these with the lip and the white compression/seal type ring is less visible just like genuine, now it could vary from model to model but i wouldnt think so , hope this is more understandable for u chief. genuine style crystals for genuine rolex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted November 16, 2006 Report Share Posted November 16, 2006 hope this is more understandable for u chief. Still confused, but what else is new. I thought the genuine crystal had flat edges and a bevel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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