Olivax Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 I love this hobby and since i've started and entered this world i've seen gen part prices going up and so the rep parts. But come one guys, some rep dealers are asking now crazy prices for cases, bezel, dials and bracelets that are after all "aftermarket" or well said rep! Just because they are better done that those pieces of chunk we are used to. Now some of those parts are worth more than a 1000 usd! Why? Because we are willing to pay that price. Just read that some dealers are asking almost 2000 usd for a 6538 case + dial. Pieces that are made in Vietnam or China for probably less than 100's of dollars!! Most o the time they still have to be modded to fit gen pieces. So i think we should wake up before they continue taking advantage of our enthousiastic hobby! We should sign a petition to make them lower those prices! If not, We should create a collective to spread autocad files of those pieces and machine them by ourselves! We should help people that are in this labour like H trying to elaborate the perfect 5512/13/14 and 1680 case with donation. Just a late night thought after all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irolexu Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Agreed phong cases bringing in mad money as well. Just not right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valty Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 [...] almost 2000 usd for a 6538 case + dial. Pieces that are made in Vietnam or China for probably less than 100's of dollars!! Most o the time they still have to be modded to fit gen pieces. For $100... I don't think so, most of the high-end dealers (at least, Phong) are doing a lot of manual job to the cases to have the perfect shape / artificial aging. This have a real cost in terms of time, knowledge, and also machines. I also think it's short runs, the dealers are certainly not selling 100 cases a day. So it probably cost a little more than $100, even without the manual work And if you pay +$1000 for a case who don't accept all the gen parts, I strongly suggest you to return the case ASAP About your idea, it's certainly doable, but I think it will cost a lot of money to make the same "business" like Phong, Minh, etc. Just look at the H difficulties to find a good factory (for only 1 reference for now !). Asians are not fools, it cost really a lot of money and time to have the "good" stuff. Not talking about having the good stuff for all the vintage references... Some suggestions about the price of the high-end cases : - Do not buy full case set. Only case & back case are good. The other stuff provided with full case is junk - If you are already a customer, ask politely for a discount, this works well with the dealers I have dealt before - Try to elaborate some group buys ? You can have really great discounts if you are a fine negotiator. Be careful, very time consuming ! Somebody here knows about that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I agree, if I could pay less I would. They know they have the good stuff and so they nail us. Especially phong with his magical engravings that nobody else can really do right imo. The yuki cases seem to have the best value but I don't know if they can compare to phong or Minh stuff again especially phong who's stuff comes with amazing custom engravings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivax Posted February 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Thanks IRolexu, Just don't want to spread names but i think that we have the power to make them change their point of vue and scare them because if they have no clients paying those prices they will be obligated to lower their price. We should start a petition signed by all the members from all the boards saying that we are not going to pay those prices anymore! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivax Posted February 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 @Valty: so why pay 350 usd for a simple 7032 steel bezel when DW use to sell a complete case with bezel for 190 usd. The only difference is the accuracy! Regarding the problem that H is encountering it's because he's just starting but i'm sure he will succeed. Those guys like phong, ndt and others are selling high prices cases for years and imo they already had profit on their investment of creating the autocad files, find a maker or machining the cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivax Posted February 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Cc33 they practice those prices just because some of us can afford paying it. If a community of a 20.000 members send them a mail signed by all memebers saying that we are not ok to pay those prices anymore then they will stop for sure! I think that phong could sell 3x more cases if the price was around 300 usd. Then he would make even more profits! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivax Posted February 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Btw, i have a 6263 phong case and had to mod it to fit the tube and endlinks. The lug holes were not even on the right position! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valty Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 The accuracy cost a lot of money... That's the real problem. I think most of us here are in the watches hobby. Selling high-end cases is more than a hobby IMO, it's a full time job, and it needs a lot of money to invest Just an example, look at the price of a professional engraving machine I agree they are all earning a lot of money now, but after all this job done, I think nobody will go the cheap route. It's the best way to crash a business. Why selling cheap if everybody is ready to put a lot of money on the stuff ? IMHO, the only "easy" way to have good prices is to only buy cases in group, and avoid buy alone the premium price. But trying to making a business like them (I'm talking about having all the cases references, engraving machines, artificial aging, etc.) is just not possible. Too many money to invest, too many time, and no guarantee about the result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valty Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Btw, i have a 6263 phong case and had to mod it to fit the tube and endlinks. The lug holes were not even on the right position! Endlinks are a common problem, I never seen a case who accepts the gen 571 end links without modding About the tube, it's not normal, you should return your case to him, and also ask about the 571 fitting. Sending your 571 is not a bad idea. He will do it for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Phong wont sit there at his workbench engraving and refining and all that for 300$ there's no way. I think Minh gets some of his stuff except dials from ndt. He then I'm presuming has to work them a bit before selling. 300 wouldn't work for him either. Ndt or yuki are the ones who don't do anything to the cases and might be able to lower their prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valty Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 If a community of a 20.000 members send them a mail signed by all memebers saying that we are not ok to pay those prices anymore then they will stop for sure! I don't think so. There is at least 5 communities on the Internet. Plus the customers who don't know our communities (and I think they are a lot). Plus eBay. Plus the customers here who will not follow the petition. Etc. You will be surprised to see how much you can save with a group buy. I think it's a better way to have good prices, again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 The cost of the engraving machine is irrelevant, it's the fact that phong uses an old technique that is very close to what rolex used back then to make the engravings look gen like. All of our cases, cheap or expensive are all engraved, but using short E's and the right font is the tricky bit that only a few can do, and he knows it. When you're one of only a few guys who can do something, you have the freedom to charge more, part of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valty Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Phong wont sit there at his workbench engraving and refining and all that for 300$ there's no way. I think Minh gets some of his stuff except dials from ndt. He then I'm presuming has to work them a bit before selling. 300 wouldn't work for him either. Ndt or yuki are the ones who don't do anything to the cases and might be able to lower their prices. I fully agree ! My opinion is it's possible to lower the price to 50 - 60% of the original price, but not less Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valty Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 phong uses an old technique that is very close to what rolex used back then to make the engravings look gen like. The accuracy of Phong engraving is really depending of many factors, like the model chosen. Example, my 6240 case is near to the perfection, but my 1665 engraving is bullshit, because he didn't used the right font / padding / etc. Especially on the "6", these are supposed to be flat, and I have a bad rounded 6. Spotted in few seconds, even if the engraving method is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Ohh, well well, I only had experience with a 6265 and 5510, I guess he's not perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valty Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Ohh, well well, I only had experience with a 6265 and 5510, I guess he's not perfect. He is perfect on the most requested models I think... Even if I had some bad surprises with Daytona cases before, about the shape... His quality is not constant at all ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivax Posted February 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) I agree with you Valty. Group buy could be the solution... Is it allowed by forum rules? Edited February 14, 2013 by Olivax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtguk Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I think it's a simple case of supply and demand, same as always and applies no matter what your selling group buys would be a great idea if the right people are organizing them ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 For $100... I don't think so, most of the high-end dealers (at least, Phong) are doing a lot of manual job to the cases to have the perfect shape / artificial aging. This have a real cost in terms of time, knowledge, and also machines. Phong uses a stone tumbler to add wear/patina to his cases. It's a mostly automatic process. His labor involves putting the case into the tumbler barrel along with some type of polishing medium (I would love to know exactly what he is using........so if anyone knows, please let us know) & turning the motor on. Then, he lets the tumbler do its work for several hours to a few days, depending on the amount of 'wear' he wants the case to have. Once the case has the right amount of wear, he takes it out, engraves it (if required, which takes no more than a few minutes) & ships it off. The cases themselves, as has been discussed many times on rwg before, cost no (or very little) more to make than the average replica case, because that is all they are - replica cases. The quality of the steel is the same, the manufacturing technique is the same, even the lack of QC is the same. The only area where they may differ is in how much effort was spent to match the dimensions of the gen they used as a model. And, considering the amount of variability (lack of dimensional consistency) of all of these premium cases, they are likely made in the same factories along side the average Canal Street replicas. Frankly, I doubt it costs more than $10 to make any of these cases. Engraving, which just about any jewelry store can do, a few dollars more. Phong, Natalie & others selling these outrageously priced rep cases are simply pocketing huge profits. Now, I will grant that those who operate in the US or EU are entitled to make a bit more profit due to the legal hazards involved in their business. But selling rep cases & dials for more than $300 is really outrageous. But, as they say, value is what a buyer is willing to pay &, when it comes to watches, especially vintage Rolex watches, neurotic WIS types (like me) are not always playing with a full deck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valty Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I agree with you Valty. Group buy could be the solution... Is it allowed by forum rules? I have absolutely no ideas about it. We should ask a mod about it. There is some problems with group buys, we need : - Somebody who is CONUS, in case of problems with the order (and you can be sure there is problems almost each time with group orders) - Somebody who is trustfully - Somebody who have many time to manage the order, the quality check before the shipping and after the shipping - Somebody who have great knowledge of the ordered cases VS. gen, to ensure the cases are good - Somebody who is a great negotiator. Communication is key to make a group order works properly, because we can't say all the dealers speak a good english I probably forgot many points, but it is surely not easy peasy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valty Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 @Freddy, I seriously think each Phong case is manually re-worked. I have seen many cases of the "same" reference in one order, and there was not a case similar to another case And after some speaking with Phong, he re-worked manually some cases to match our current needs About NDT / Yuki / etc, I believe the cases are "stock" But seriously not sure about Phong & Minh. This probably explain the price difference between the dealers, IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivax Posted February 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Phong uses a stone tumbler to add wear/patina to his cases. It's a mostly automatic process. His labor involves putting the case into the tumbler barrel along with some type of polishing medium (I would love to know exactly what he is using........so if anyone knows, please let us know) & turning the motor on. Then, he lets the tumbler do its work for several hours to a few days, depending on the amount of 'wear' he wants the case to have. Once the case has the right amount of wear, he takes it out, engraves it (if required, which takes no more than a few minutes) & ships it off. The cases themselves, as has been discussed many times on rwg before, cost no (or very little) more to make than the average replica case, because that is all they are - replica cases. The quality of the steel is the same, the manufacturing technique is the same, even the lack of QC is the same. The only area where they may differ is in how much effort was spent to match the dimensions of the gen they used as a model. And, considering the amount of variability (lack of dimensional consistency) of all of these premium cases, they are likely made in the same factories along side the average Canal Street replicas. Frankly, I doubt it costs more than $10 to make any of these cases. Engraving, which just about any jewelry store can do, a few dollars more. Phong, Natalie & others selling these outrageously priced rep cases are simply pocketing huge profits. Now, I will grant that those who operate in the US or EU are entitled to make a bit more profit due to the legal hazards involved in their business. But selling rep cases & dials for more than $300 is really outrageous. But, as they say, value is what a buyer is willing to pay &, when it comes to watches, especially vintage Rolex watches, neurotic WIS types (like me) are not always playing with a full deck. +1 Freddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivax Posted February 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I've asked Phong for a Tudor 7032 bezel and he asked me 350 usd and later one I've been offered a gen one for 380 usd!!! There is no logic when you consider that phong's bezel has flaws and at the end it's just a rep part which value for collectors are near to 0 usd!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Yes he does manually rework some cases. There are definitely different versions of the same model that he sells and definitely some better than others. He will try to modify the less accurate cases to be more aesthetically pleasing. So you do really have to know what you're looking at when your case arrives. But that said he's definitely doing more than buying cases from run of the mill rep factories because he can and does produce custom one offs. Or at least he used to. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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