Manticore Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 I just spoke with 2 of my suppliers/watch makers and both of them considered it a waste of money to service a new Asian 7750. Don't do anything until a problem arises were their suggestion. They both work with Asian 7750 all the time doing full service and repair work. I was under the impression that it's almost vital for the longevity of the movement to have it serviced as soon as possible. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luizao Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 I am also very interested in this thread, as I also thought that a quick service was important for the Asian 7750. Hopefully someone will be able to share their knowledge on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Prevention is better than cure. If your 7750 runs smoothly, winds cleanly, sets accurately, etc. then there's probably no pressing need to get it serviced, but you should still consider it. If it feels gritty or doesn't run as smoothly as you'd like, get it serviced as soon as possible. If you wait for problems, you'll be paying for parts and service instead of just a service. You can't un-wear metal. Still, having said all that, if you paid $250 for a cool a7750 watch, there's no point in getting it serviced if you'd prefer to replace it for $250 than repair it for $200. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manticore Posted November 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Thanks Pugwash, good point. I think I'll choose prevention and since I can have it done for a good price I guess it's better to be safe than sorry. I am just surprised by their answer (both of them) but then again they're not the end user. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBoy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Can someone tell me roughly how much I should expect to pay for a service? (When I get a new one - not when it breaks)... Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 This has been discussed many times... For what it's worth, I'll comment from what I see from the workbench. I have serviced dozens and dozens of Asian 7750's, both the older version and the new one. You can take my comments with a grain of salt or self serving, or you can consider them to be information from what is seen when a movement is opened up and looked at... What I see with every one is dry movements (i.e. no oil, not even in the balance cap jewels), and parts that are overoiled to the extreme... During the last year the dirt issue has been corrected, but these movements are still not oiled. Simple analagy: The reality is this, you can pay the watchmaker "Now" or "Later"...meaning a movement that you choose to let run with no oil and use it until it stops (because of worn/broken parts) will be more expensive or impossible to fix vs cleaning and oiling it as a preventive measure... Any watchmaker can clean and oil a watch and make it run...finding and replacing broken/worn parts - especially on an Asian model is next to impossible... In the end, it's a choice. You may want to keep the watch and not invest any money in maintaing it and when it breaks, throw it out and get a new one...nothing wrong with this if this is your way of doing things... Compare this to your car, how many here drive their car and never ever check or change the oil?? Would you drive your car until it broke and as your watchmaker said "dont' do anything until a problem arises..." and when the engine finally quits, do you think the repair bill is going to be the same, more, or less than changing the oil on a regular basis??? Here is what I find in Asian 7750's, NEW 28.8K models... It's a choice, and there is no right or wrong answer, but the reality is that these Asian 7750's are no where near serviced correctly when delivered...I see it all the time...now you know "the rest of the story..." RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Can someone tell me roughly how much I should expect to pay for a service? (When I get a new one - not when it breaks)... Just curious. www.ziggyinfo.com Or better yet, Google "Watch Repair Prices" and you'll get a good cross section of pricing... Check these guys out... Manual wind_______________________$75.00 Manual wind shockproof____________$80.00 Manual wind w/calendar____________$95.00 Automatic wind____________________$150.00 Automatic w/calender______________$175.00 Automatic chronometer_____________$750.00 i.e. 7750 Repair shop link... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBoy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 www.The Zigmeisterinfo.com Or better yet, Google "Watch Repair Prices" and you'll get a good cross section of pricing... Automatic chronometer_____________$750.00 i.e. 7750 Repair shop link... RG OK - maybe I'm missing something - but if you charge $200 to clean an Asian 7750 (and others may charge up to $750!!) I don't really see the point of servicing it at all. Even if it's cleaned and serviced - there's no guarantee the watch and/or movement will last 5 years. Other parts of the watch may break, etc. If I only pay $250 for a new watch (shipped, etc) then I'm having a hard time justifying getting it cleaned. Might as well run it until it dies. Unless, of course it will have to be replaced every year. Are you saying that if I don't clean/service the movement while new that it WILL die in a year or less? Or is it just luck of the draw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manticore Posted November 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Wow is it that bad! Big thanks for clarifying and for taking the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 OK - maybe I'm missing something - but if you charge $200 to clean an Asian 7750 (and others may charge up to $750!!) I don't really see the point of servicing it at all. Even if it's cleaned and serviced - there's no guarantee the watch and/or movement will last 5 years. Other parts of the watch may break, etc. If I only pay $250 for a new watch (shipped, etc) then I'm having a hard time justifying getting it cleaned. Might as well run it until it dies. Unless, of course it will have to be replaced every year. Are you saying that if I don't clean/service the movement while new that it WILL die in a year or less? Or is it just luck of the draw? Luck of the draw... the other problem is that the watch you like may not be produced any more ... eg. original version of the PAM187 with Asian7750 movement, or the IWC GST Chrono. The other alternative, for those real good ones, is to replace the Asian 7750 with ETA 7750 if and when the Asian 7750 dies, or pre-empt it and do it from the beginning I haven't had any of my Asian 7750s serviced... wait I think I only have one, the IWC GST, but I would like to put in an ETA 7750 in there cos the watch is that damn good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 OK - maybe I'm missing something - but if you charge $200 to clean an Asian 7750 (and others may charge up to $750!!) I don't really see the point of servicing it at all. Your comparing the cost of the servicing to the cost of the product, that analagy does not work... If I sold you a Ferrari for $1000 and the dealer wanted $1000 to adjust the valves, you would think your getting ripped off by the dealer... If you paid $150,000 for the car, you would think $1000 was a good deal... Just cause the watch cost $50 more than the servicing cost, does not mean the servicing cost should be adjusted to reflect a certain percentage of the cost of the watch... The same effort is needed to service your $250 7750 chrono, as is needed to service a $4000 Omega with a ETA 7750... Even if it's cleaned and serviced - there's no guarantee the watch and/or movement will last 5 years. Other parts of the watch may break, etc. There is no guarantee that changing and keeping fresh oil in your car engine will mean it wont' throw a rod, or break a valve...so do you not change the oil regularly because of this?? The 7750 has been around for 30 years, mechanical watches for much longer, it's a known fact that a clean and oiled watch will keep running and have the best chance of lasting a lifetime... Other than dropping the watch (which has nothing to do with servicing) there is little in a movement to "break" during it's life...keepign it oiled is the best insurance against it failing. If I only pay $250 for a new watch (shipped, etc) then I'm having a hard time justifying getting it cleaned. Might as well run it until it dies. Unless, of course it will have to be replaced every year. Your having a hard time because your comparing the cost you paid to the cost to get it serviced...the two are mutually exclusive... See my Ferrari example above... Are you saying that if I don't clean/service the movement while new that it WILL die in a year or less? Or is it just luck of the draw? I have no idea when your watch, or for that matter anyone's watch will die, if ever... It's luck of the draw but if you want the watch to last a lifetime the best chance of that happening is if the movement is clean, oiled and adjusted correctly... It still may quit, but so far, of the dozens and dozens of new and old Asian 7750's I have serviced, only 1 has been returned for warranty...and no one has told me that their movement quit after I serviced it... Anyone who has communicated with me knows I am very open and honest, so it's not like they would be afraid to let me know of a problem... You can always also go the route of installing a genuine ETA 7750, that can involve some work depending on what your replacing it with...ie standard 7750 layout is straight forward... Now your informed and can make an informed decision, to service or not to service, your choice, but at least you know what these movements are like when delivered. It makes no difference to me what anyone does, but since I sit at the bench and see what the condition of these movements is, it's my contribution to the forum to inform the members here of what I find... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Good reply Rob Is it possible for you to supply ETA 7750s at cost as well ? Sending from outside Canada/USA could cause problems with getting ETA 7750s sent out there... or maybe not. Tourbillon will know I guess. I've been meaning to contact you about the IWC but lack of funds keeps pushing everything back... I also have a genuine dial and will find out if the hands need luming. Sorry for the ramblings... back to whether the movment should be serviced... it's upto the individual to decide. Many buy reps because it's cheaper, but the service charges will not be different - if you can find someone to service a rep! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBoy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Your comparing the cost of the servicing to the cost of the product, that analagy does not work... If I sold you a Ferrari for $1000 and the dealer wanted $1000 to adjust the valves, you would think your getting ripped off by the dealer... If you paid $150,000 for the car, you would think $1000 was a good deal... Just cause the watch cost $50 more than the servicing cost, does not mean the servicing cost should be adjusted to reflect a certain percentage of the cost of the watch... The same effort is needed to service your $250 7750 chrono, as is needed to service a $4000 Omega with a ETA 7750... There is no guarantee that changing and keeping fresh oil in your car engine will mean it wont' throw a rod, or break a valve...so do you not change the oil regularly because of this?? Your having a hard time because your comparing the cost you paid to the cost to get it serviced...the two are mutually exclusive... RG I'm sorry - but YOUR analogy does not work. If I bought a Ferrari (or ANY car) for that matter - and the cost to make it run was the same as buying another car - then I would simply buy another car. I wouldn't think the dealer was ripping me off. I'm also not suggesting that your prices are too high. Your price is your price. There's just no sense in paying that much money to service a watch when it can be replaced for the same cost (or less). Besides - if I bought a GEN watch - I would expect it to run WITHOUT having to have it cleaned first. That's PART of the reason why the prices are higher for Gen's. Just like if I paid $150,000 for a Ferrari - I would expect it to run (or at least have some sort of warranty?) Lastly - the cost of changing the oil in a car is a very small percentage of the overall cost. I can get an oil change for $40 or less. And that's on a $40,000 car (or even on a $4,000) one. If it cost me $4,000 to change the oil on a $4,000 car - I probably wouldn't bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBoy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 P.S. The last Rep I bought DID break. Looks like a sprint exploded inside. Doesn't wind any more. Would a cleaning have prevented that? I doubt it. (And no - I didn't drop it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 I'm sorry - but YOUR analogy does not work. If I bought a Ferrari (or ANY car) for that matter - and the cost to make it run was the same as buying another car - then I would simply buy another car. I wouldn't think the dealer was ripping me off. If you buy a car for $1000 and it dies so you replace it with another $1000 that will die just as quickly, when you reach the third car, the guy who paid the $1000 for someone to fix the known problem is still on his first car and paid less than you. Our 7750 chronos are not finished works: They're built to sell, not to last. The final step of servicing and checking before selling is crucially missed out on our replicas. A service is merely getting someone to finish the construction of your watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 I'm sorry - but YOUR analogy does not work. If I bought a Ferrari (or ANY car) for that matter - and the cost to make it run was the same as buying another car - then I would simply buy another car. I wouldn't think the dealer was ripping me off. I'm also not suggesting that your prices are too high. Your price is your price. There's just no sense in paying that much money to service a watch when it can be replaced for the same cost (or less). Besides - if I bought a GEN watch - I would expect it to run WITHOUT having to have it cleaned first. That's PART of the reason why the prices are higher for Gen's. Just like if I paid $150,000 for a Ferrari - I would expect it to run (or at least have some sort of warranty?) Lastly - the cost of changing the oil in a car is a very small percentage of the overall cost. I can get an oil change for $40 or less. And that's on a $40,000 car (or even on a $4,000) one. If it cost me $4,000 to change the oil on a $4,000 car - I probably wouldn't bother. If you think there is no sense in paying to have your watch serviced, then dont' do it...no one is forcing you to do anything. Of course your expecting a Gen to run without doing anything to it, but were talking about fake watches, not genuine ones...this is the reality of these movements, you may not like it, but that's the way it is... Changing the oil is a good comparison, but your forgetting that "Servicing" a watch is identical to a complete overhaul and teardown of the car engine... I use it as an example, because most people can relate to it...unlike watchmaking where most people are not informed as to what is done. Servicing a watch requires you to take the watch fully apart, to each and every last screw and component, clean them, inspect them, assemble them, oil and adjust them... etc....this takes time, skills, expensive and specialized tooling... How much would it cost to do this on a car??? Probably a bit more than $40... Your not comparing apples to apples in your comparison. Many choose to simply wear the watch until it dies, and buy a new one...that's perfectly acceptable...if you choose this route as well, plse keep me in mind when your watches die, I would like to have the spares... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Besides - if I bought a GEN watch - I would expect it to run WITHOUT having to have it cleaned first. That's PART of the reason why the prices are higher for Gen's. You missed the point. The gens are cleaned and serviced and the cost is added into the final price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBoy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 You missed the point. The gens are cleaned and serviced and the cost is added into the final price. Actually I DIDN'T miss the point. I said that's part of the reason why they cost more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Good reply Rob Is it possible for you to supply ETA 7750s at cost as well ? Sending from outside Canada/USA could cause problems with getting ETA 7750s sent out there... or maybe not. Tourbillon will know I guess. I've been meaning to contact you about the IWC but lack of funds keeps pushing everything back... I also have a genuine dial and will find out if the hands need luming. Sorry for the ramblings... back to whether the movment should be serviced... it's upto the individual to decide. Many buy reps because it's cheaper, but the service charges will not be different - if you can find someone to service a rep! I dont' stock ETA7750's as they are too expensive, best buy is to get one on Ebay...$250 or so... Good point on getting "someone" to work on a rep...that is always a problem... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 P.S. The last Rep I bought DID break. Looks like a sprint exploded inside. Doesn't wind any more. Would a cleaning have prevented that? I doubt it. (And no - I didn't drop it) And the point is... It's clear your not in favor of servicing a watch, so be it - you made your point. Don't get it serviced. Actually I DIDN'T miss the point. I said that's part of the reason why they cost more. Seems as if your arguing for the sake of arguing... The genuines cost MORE, but the servicing still costs the same and requires the same skills and time as a rep... Your expecting a product costing 10% of the cost of a genuine to be like a genuine, BUT only cost 10% of the price of a genuine to get serviced. Sorry, but it can't because although it's not a genuine, it's still got the same engine powering it... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBoy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 If you think there is no sense in paying to have your watch serviced, then dont' do it...no one is forcing you to do anything. Of course your expecting a Gen to run without doing anything to it, but were talking about fake watches, not genuine ones...this is the reality of these movements, you may not like it, but that's the way it is... Changing the oil is a good comparison, but your forgetting that "Servicing" a watch is identical to a complete overhaul and teardown of the car engine... I use it as an example, because most people can relate to it...unlike watchmaking where most people are not informed as to what is done. Servicing a watch requires you to take the watch fully apart, to each and every last screw and component, clean them, inspect them, assemble them, oil and adjust them... etc....this takes time, skills, expensive and specialized tooling... How much would it cost to do this on a car??? Probably a bit more than $40... Your not comparing apples to apples in your comparison. Many choose to simply wear the watch until it dies, and buy a new one...that's perfectly acceptable...if you choose this route as well, plse keep me in mind when your watches die, I would like to have the spares... RG I think you're just repeating what I said. I didn't say YOUR service was as simple as an oil change on a car. YOU asked if I would change the oil on a car if there was no guarantee that it would stop a rod from throwing, etc. You compared an oil change on a car to YOUR service. Not me. I agreed that these are cheap watches - and couldn't be expected to perform to the same standard as a Gen. I also understand that servicing a movement is akin to stripping and rebuilding an engine. But I simply wouldn't have an engine rebuilt on ANY car. It's always cheaper and easier to buy a new car (or even a new engine!). Can we agree to disagree? I suppose if I ever come a decent rep (one worth keeping and wearing for many years to come) then I will certainly consider paying those kinds of prices to keep it running. As it is - someone emailed me a link to a watchmaker (local to me) that will do the service for about 1/4 your cost. Will I get the same level of service? Probably not. Will my watch last 4 times longer with your service? Probably not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBoy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Seems as if your arguing for the sake of arguing... The genuines cost MORE, but the servicing still costs the same and requires the same skills and time as a rep... Your expecting a product costing 10% of the cost of a genuine to be like a genuine, BUT only cost 10% of the price of a genuine to get serviced. Sorry, but it can't because although it's not a genuine, it's still got the same engine powering it... I could say the same to you. At least I READ what you write before replying! I DON'T expect t a Rep to be like a Gen. I never said I did! In fact - I keep repeating over and over that I know they are different. GEN'S COST MORE AND GENERALLY WORK FOR MANY YEARS WITH NO PROBLEMS. That's part of the reason they cost so much. PART of the reason. I also NEVER said that I expected a REP to cost any less to service. I simply said I didn't think it was worth it. And lastly - let's be honest here. They do NOT have the same engines powering them - do they? Show me a GEN watch with an Asian 7750 in it and I'll shut up. I think your whole point is that Asian 7750's are cheap movements - no? If I purchased a new, raw ETA 7750 - would I still have the same problems? Or would it work for years to come? Listen - end of the day I completely understand that a REP is a REP. It's pretty and it's cheap. I don't expect much from it. If it works for a year - I'm happy. I hope that next year at this time the watch I just bought will be a lot more fine-tuned (flaws fixed) and if so - I'll gladly pay the extra cost to keep it running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Can we agree to disagree? Works for me... I suppose if I ever come a decent rep (one worth keeping and wearing for many years to come) then I will certainly consider paying those kinds of prices to keep it running. As it is - someone emailed me a link to a watchmaker (local to me) that will do the service for about 1/4 your cost. Sounds like a great price, go for it... as in most things in life, you get what you pay for... 1/4 of the cost most likely is a "Swish and Lube Service"... Will my watch last 4 times longer with your service? Probably not. Believe me, you have no worries of that ever taking place... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rek001 Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Good thread, even though this has been discussed before. I'd like to emphasize, as The Zigmeister has said, you get what you pay for, if you like and want to keep the watch a long time. If your watchmaker charges under $100, there is no way he will completely take apart the movement and clean it properly, oil it with 4 different oils, put it together, regulate it in different positions etc. like The Zigmeister does. A simple dip and swish for $75 won't do it, if it's over or under oiled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Good thread, even though this has been discussed before. I'd like to emphasize, as Ziggy has said, you get what you pay for, if you like and want to keep the watch a long time. If your watchmaker charges under $100, there is no way he will completely take apart the movement and clean it properly, oil it with 4 different oils, put it together, regulate it in different positions etc. like Ziggy does. A simple dip and swish for $75 won't do it, if it's over or under oiled. He quoted 1/4 of my cost, so that would be $50 for a full service on a Chrono...wow... Lets see, a chrono takes on average of 5 hours to service the movement alone, all this for $50...sign me up for this one, I see a money making oportunity for someone here... All one has to do is Google watch repair prices from recognized shops, and you'll quickly come to the conclusion that $50 is not going to get you a full correct service on anything, let alone a Chrono... He's arguing for the sake of arguing...in any event it all comes down to choice. He thinks it's too expensive to service a movement in a rep and cheaper to throw it out when it breakes. I keep my watches and don't consider them "Throw Aways" by any means... but to each their own... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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