Breitling running WAY fast

[lhedrick]

I recently acquired a Breitling diver type watch which contains the 2824-2.

 

I don't know how many owners the watch has had but, that person I got it from purchased in a state which is not workable.  It gains around 15 MINUTES a day, not seconds, MINUTES.   He was told it would cost several hundred dollars to service it and did not want to spend that much to get it working properly.  So, now it's my problem.

 

My guess is that the watches is 20 - 25 years old.  What would cause a 2824 to run so fast?  I understand the mechanics of watch escapements but not the fine tuning of them.  I have not and never will touch a balance wheel spring.

 

Has anyone ever seen this kind of gain or know what might be at the core of the issue?

 

[Rolexman]

It's 20 years old!!?? The movement is dirty and dry which causes too much friction. If you would not change the oil on your car in 20 years how would it run you reckon? The movement needs a full overhaul and fresh oiling. No short cuts unfortunately. If it is a genuine and you go to an Authorized Dealer it wil cost you a couple of grands.

[lhedrick]

I don't know when it was last serviced.  If it was clogged up with old dry oil, seems like it would slow down.  

 

I have collected watches a long time and never seen one run fast like this.  Years ago after I learned about the standard ETA 2824-2.   I learned how to clean them.  I have the parts diagrams and it's always seemed easy to re-assemble them but, those I have cleaned and oiled were running within a few seconds a day.  Cleaning and oiling is one thing but after looking at a balance spring, it's not something I have the skill to touch.  I understand what makes these watches fly but the length of a hair spring and how it can oscillate  to 5 seconds a day at 672000 (28000*24) spins per day in a good watch has always been amazing to me.  

 

I would never have the skill in my hands to hookup a new spring.

 

This has to be related to the hair spring.  Not something I would replace but, I want to understand it.

 

There is the fine adjustment screw which is part of the regulator, the end point where the sprint attaches and the part which the spring goes through just before the end point.  I have never had to touch these parts other then the fine adjustment screw head.

 

I was planning to clean this watch but that was before I found out how fast is was running.  There must be something else which I don't know about.  I would like to understand what might be going on before cleaning.  If it's something I don't know about I will leave it to a pro, but, I still want to understand the issue.

 

I have this problem about wanting to know how everything I own works.  Wish I didn't have this obsession.  If makes me crazy when I don't understand how something works or in this case does not work.

 

A few years ago I knew a watch maker who was great.  He would show me how to work on things and tell me what I should have him fix.  I would buy old watches and he would tell me what to fix or if too complex he would do the job.  He was the one who showed me the first ETA 2824-2 I ever saw and told me the worst I could do was screw up and then replace the movement as they were not that expensive.  He was 80 back then and died 2 years ago.  Wish I could find someone like him again.  Most don't have any desire to explain what is happening, they just say that will be 350.00, that's fine but I learn nothing in the process.  

 

Anyway, I just don't know why this one is running so fast.

 

 

 

It's 20 years old!!?? The movement is dirty and dry which causes too much friction. If you would not change the oil on your car in 20 years how would it run you reckon? The movement needs a full overhaul and fresh oiling. No short cuts unfortunately. If it is a genuine and you go to an Authorized Dealer it wil cost you a couple of grands.

Edited July 20, 2013 by lhedrick

[Rolexman]

I told you why it is running fast. Dirty and dry movements don't slow down. That is a misconception. They speed up! If you think you know all the answers yourself and don't take the advice of members that actually know what they are talking about there really is no point of posting here anymore.

[jamesfl]

Rolexman knows what he is talking about and is probably correct, but there is another possibility.

If a watch is running extremely fast it can indicate a magnetized hairspring coils. Magnetized coils stick together which shortens balance wheel rotation thus increasing the beat rate.

Find a watchmaker with a demagnetizing machine and have him give it a shot. If that doesn't work be prepared to pay for a full service as Rolexman said.

[Rolexman]

Rolexman knows what he is talking about and is probably correct, but there is another possibility.

If a watch is running extremely fast it can indicate a magnetized hairspring coils. Magnetized coils stick together which shortens balance wheel rotation thus increasing the beat rate.

Find a watchmaker with a demagnetizing machine and have him give it a shot. If that doesn't work be prepared to pay for a full service as Rolexman said.

Yes, there are numeral causes that can make a movement speed up. With an old movement dirt and dried up oil is the first thing that comes to mind. A magnetized hair spring is also an option and I can name a dozen other possible causes.

@OP: Good luck finding someone to teach you watch mechanics when you disregard or don't appreciate advice given.

[lhedrick]

You just said it might be dirty and need new oil.  I didn't know that could speed things up.  I have very few answers here, only questions.  Just speculating and I know for certain you and others have vast experience over me.  That's why I'm here.  I was in no way trying to ignore your post.  I just like watches and I like working on them and trying to understand how the work.

 

If it really is dirt and old oil so be it and I have been served and I thank you.

 

Here is just another thought.  Remember, just trying to speculate and understand.  If I am flat out wrong feel free to tell me as I am sure you will.

--

 

There is the spring stud, which the spring goes through before the end point of the spring and the bend in the spring ( kind of like a dog leg to line the spring up so it has a line to go through the stud to it's attachment point,  just before it goes through the stud.  After the bend the spring moves close to all the rest of the coils going to the center.  I looks like the hair spring coils are too close to each other in the last few coils.  It looks like while running, they may touch each other.  This would in effect shorten the spring and cause it to oscillate faster (just my guess anyway).

 

So, perhaps the watch was dropped and perhaps someone with greater skill then I could manipulate the spring to get the coils into and orientation where they are spaced better.  Or, replace the spring.  Feel free to tell me I am crazy.  I know one thing for sure, if I even try to touch a spring like that with my fat fingers and sledge hammer touch it will need to he replaced for sure.  That is one spring I know I don't have the skill to touch.

 

I have no issue taking the watch to a real educated watch maker but, I would like them to show me what is going on.  I just need to know.

 

 

 

I told you why it is running fast. Dirty and dry movements don't slow down. That is a misconception. They speed up! If you think you know all the answers yourself and don't take the advice of members that actually know what they are talking about there really is no point of posting here anymore.

[lhedrick]

I have always heard that a magnetized spring sticking together could cause this and it makes sense.  Just wonder how the spring could get exposed to enough of a field to pick up a magnetic state.  Anyway, thanks, it makes a lot of sense.  I guess oil could cause the coils to stick together also.  Even with 10X magnification, it's difficult to see things.  Watch makers do amazing things with such small parts.

 

-----------

 

Rolexman knows what he is talking about and is probably correct, but there is another possibility.

If a watch is running extremely fast it can indicate a magnetized hairspring coils. Magnetized coils stick together which shortens balance wheel rotation thus increasing the beat rate.

Find a watchmaker with a demagnetizing machine and have him give it a shot. If that doesn't work be prepared to pay for a full service as Rolexman said.

 

 

Rolexman knows what he is talking about and is probably correct, but there is another possibility.

If a watch is running extremely fast it can indicate a magnetized hairspring coils. Magnetized coils stick together which shortens balance wheel rotation thus increasing the beat rate.

Find a watchmaker with a demagnetizing machine and have him give it a shot. If that doesn't work be prepared to pay for a full service as Rolexman said.

[jamesfl]

Op, please stop quoting the above answer/s and inserting your comments within the quoted text. It makes your responses very difficult to follow.

Edited July 20, 2013 by jamesfl

[Guest]

It's 20 years old!!?? The movement is dirty and dry which causes too much friction. If you would not change the oil on your car in 20 years how would it run you reckon? The movement needs a full overhaul and fresh oiling. No short cuts unfortunately. If it is a genuine and you go to an Authorized Dealer it wil cost you a couple of grands.

Yikes! My dad has a genuine DateJust for 20+ years and it's never been serviced. Still running fine. Hate to see what's inside.

[FxrAndy]

Some people just don't want to take advice, and don't want to spend any thing to make it work properly

It's their loss!

[lhedrick]

People, once again

 

I said the watch is about 20 - 25 years.  I didn't says it was not cleaned in 25 years.

 

Sorry to have created such a confusing situation.  The advice about cleaning the watch is fine but, that's not what this is all about.  knowledge is the quest not just getting a watch cleaned.

 

I have cleaned many 2824-2 movements.  I just don't mess with fine springs.  Little screws are about the same as big screws.

 

I can clean this movement but I don't think that is the issue which will cause it to gain several minutes a day.

 

I took another look under the 10X loupe, I can see some oil so dirty dust contaminated oil is not the issue.  It's the coils of the spring which are not in an orderly position and they touch each other.  I had to remove the automatic device frame work to get a better look.

 

I never said the watch had not been cleaned in 25 years.  IT'S THE WATCH WHICH IS 25 YEARS OLD.

 

Many will always say you are not a watchmaker don't touch it.  But, there was time when every watchmaker was not a watchmaker and had to touch a watch to become a watchmaker.

 

Surly, a watchmaker should not make the assumption that a 25 year old watch has never been cleaned.  At the very least, a reasonable question would have been "do you know when the watch was last cleaned and oiled?"

 

Is it a standard procedure for most watchmaker to ignore their customers and not ask for any known history?  Is the watchmakers trade like a closed shop union where you must show your watchmakers union card to prove you are worthy of a question?  A sort of monopoly for fine craftsman.  I would think not.

 

The watch is 25 years old, so I guess that means it has never been cleaned and oiled.

[FxrAndy]

If you will not and have never touched a balance spring then you have never properly cleaned a 2824, the reason it is running that fast is more than likely that two coils of the balance are touching and the way to solve that would be to clean it