Panerai Datewheel Issue...

[lello]

"Hi all members,

please excuse me if I want to make this post to clarify this datewheels issue and to trace back its history, and some of mine too.

First of all, my intention is not messing around or creating problems to anyone, but just behaving to the interest of our community.

I would like to recall that I personally started working on the Panny datewheels in June 2005, one and a half years a go, all the veterans here will remember that.

I started with the 2893 wheel, for GMT 063 and 029.

I faced several problems since the very beginning, I am more than aware that this is a hard task to anyone to venture into, and I have not been the only one who broke his head several times before finally getting a good result.

When criticism was raised I decided to put myself on a side, promising to myself that I would come back only if and when I would succeed on the datewheel issue.

Now the time has come.

Now I can imagine that others who worked on similar projects may now get worried in seeing me back on the datewheels, as in the meanwhile they also spent their time, money and efforts in order to make it work.

But this is exactly what I also went through, too.

I don't like to talk about it, but it may help in getting the whole picture.

Right now I'm still out of 1000+ Euros on this project, as I had to pay it all out from my pockets, several cliché and several printing tests, and also full production of 50 pieces each time, only one refunded by the manufacturer.

I actually had some income only when I had printed and sold some 2893 datewheels that then revealed a small alignment defect on other watches. I still have one of those datewheels on my 063, and the problem is very slight, almost undetectable on my watch. Now that I can provide new and improved datewheels, anyone who got one of those less-than-perfect pieces will get a new one on half the price.

I'm saying this just because I don't want anyone thinking that I came here to steal customers from other fellows who are working on similar projects. I simply happened to start first and finish first, that's all.

I was also aware that, for the time I was ready to come back, somebody else could have managed to make it right before me, and I was ready to accept this occurrence.

Now I would like to work together to find a solution that may make all us satisfied in the end.

All members can judge by themselves, by reading the story.

I'm open to any suggestions you all may suggest in order to find a solution that won't hurt anybody.

My target is not making money from this, luckily I can live on my profession that it is totally different. My target was, and it still is, and I'm sure it is the same to many of you too, taking our reps as close to the genuines as possible, the "perfect rep".

To achieve this goal, whoever is able to offer good solutions and upgraded parts is very welcome. I would be so happy not to need to work on anything anymore because someone else already managed to provide all the upgrades we want.

I have the good luck to be born and living in Firenze (now I moved a bit out of town in a more quiet place), the town where Panerai was made, and - I don't know why - here it is possible to find spare parts to any types of watches. Here are a few very specialized shops where all the watchsmiths from all the region use to come to get the parts they need.

I shouldn't be allowed to purchase in those shops, but I managed to become very close with the owner of one of these places and now, through him, I am able to get any parts I need.

Since the beginning I wanted to be helpful to RWG members, I started to make the 'famous' crowns for Pannies, and a while later I started the datewheel project.

Why, now that I finally managed to reach a good result, should I throw everything away and stand on only the losses I went through to make it the interest of the whole community?

I noticed that in the meanwhile Palpatine and some other members produced Pam crowns, and I'm pleased of it. I find it very sensible that, should these new crowns work better than mine, people won't ask for my crowns anymore. If Palpatine's crowns are better, I will also buy from him.

Right now I am also having my 063 and one of another member relumed.

When I'll get the dials back, I'll let you know how they look.

I'm receiving some requests to produce the 7750 and 7753 datewheels, but I currently prefer to wait and see the outcome of the other current projects. I read that in 1-2 weeks these new datewheels will be ready. If they will come out good I'll have no reason to do the same, I do not want to compete with anyone.

I think that the best and wiser solution might consist in sharing the requests for datewheels, and all those who prove good products might then work on different models.

Below you can see the difference between the old datewheel I printed on last January and the new ones. These are printed with proper equipment by a manufacturer that only makes dials. That's why the pigment is so bright, and it will last forever.

Ok, I stop here.

I will be grateful to all of you, if you will let me/us know your opinion.

Thanks a lot,

--

Lello

[reelamore]

Very good history for the new members Lello thanks..

WHEN i was a Noob not too long ago you were one of the few

veterans who helped me unselfishly and although you were gone for a while

continued to offer your friendship across the big lake.

Welcome back, there are many more "mods" to be dealth with in our future and

a Firenze resident is a good guy to have here..

BTW, Your date wheel you sent me looks fantastic!..I'm sure you will recieve good reports.

[cskent69]

Lello, why does the new date wheel look like there is alot of white paint splattered outside of the numbers? Is that just dust?

[lello]

To cskent69:

when I first looked at the pic, I was also surprised about this grane in the black of the DW, but I can swear it's not visible, even with a mgnifying glass.

Now the few members who bought it, are receiving it and hopefully they will show their satisfaction.

Above here ther is one of them that seams very happy.

Believe me, it looks totally smooth even under a mag lens.

--

Lello.

[archibald]

Lello, why does the new date wheel look like there is alot of white paint splattered outside of the numbers? Is that just dust?

I think everyone is entitled to make whatever they want to make and then offer it up for sale--as long as they understand that if they offer the same product that someone else has put just as much time and effort into, they're going to have to compete.

I'd never presume to speak for any member other than myself, not even for my fellow "watchmiesters" (the totally unserious name a couple of other members and I call ourselves when we put out stuff to improve watches). But I can speak for myself.

We never even considered competing with Mark because, having read the forum over the last few months, we realized he was going through a nightmare to put out a product that would make everybody's watches better. And he's a cool guy whom we like. And we're afraid he won't PVD any more watches for us if we [censored] him off.

Lello says he wasn't around to be aware of Marks work, and, far from showing up to make a couple of bucks selling date wheels he finally got close to correct, he's returned to complete a job he started long ago. I'll take him at is word.

Since all of the "watchmiesters" are more or less gainfully employed, we didn't think a few hundred bucks was worth undercutting the efforts of a fellow RWGer. So we decided to put out the 7750 and Asia 21j instead, even though we, you know, "got lots of requests" to put out a 2892 and 7753 while people were waiting. Basically, we decided to do th vintage wheel ubi posted while Mark finished up.

As I posted earlier, we're sort of non-serious guys when it comes to hobbies, so we'd prefer not to treat this project likesome sort of business. But we do have a good bit of time and money invested, and I'm the only communist in the group. So here's how it's going to be: We recognize lello's or any other member's right to put out a 7750, Asia 21j, or any datewheel he wants. Maybe we'll put out a different wheel, maybe move on to another watch.....but we really do hope nobody gets angry if a 2892, 2893, Asia 21J, Asia 7750, Swiss 7750 wheels are released that look just as good (if not better based on the picture above) and are offered at price less than what it costs to make a silk screened version.

[HauteHippie]

But we do have a good bit of time and money invested, and I'm the only communist in the group. So here's how it's going to be: We recognize lello's or any other member's right to put out a 7750, Asia 21j, or any datewheel he wants. Maybe we'll put out a different wheel, maybe move on to another watch.....but we really do hope nobody gets angry if a 2892, 2893, Asia 21J, Asia 7750, Swiss 7750 wheels are released that look just as good (if not better based on the picture above) and are offered at price less than what it costs to make a silk screened version.

Hmm. You sound more like a capitalist to me..... and that's a good thing. Competition is good for everyone.

[reelamore]

Hmm. You sound more like a capitalist to me..... and that's a good thing. Competition is good for everyone.

AMEN

[sssurfer]

Personally I can't wait, after the good crowns collection I already have (Lello's, Palpatine's, Davidsen's, Homer's), to start a nice collection of datewheels too...

I too think that competition is good (especially to customers ).

Still, I also feel that orders placed when the starter is gauging interest, taking preorders, and so, are somewhat different from orders placed in a latter, established phase when the pieces have already been produced and they 'just' have to get sold.

Those first orders critically drive the maker on his economy choices, whether to carry on with the project or not, etc.

So I strongly hope that anyone who placed an order with Finepics on his datewheels will honour his word -- and naturally buy from Lello and Archibald too, if they like. I'll do it this way.

I would even encourage Lello, Finepics and Archibald on taking arrangements between them not to sell to anyone (if any) who steps back from a preorder to get the piece(s) from a different provider.

[mikellem]

I think it's great that we have more sources for the products we are trying to improve!

I feel Lello had put in a tremendous effort in the past and currently, and I think it's great he is

attempting to come back!...

Welcome Back Lello! I hope you are here to stay!

-MM

[lello]

Ok, I didn't expect that the guys working on datewheels project, would be happy to see me back.

However, I came back in the spirit of bringing something positive to the community and not to scatter poisons around.

Archibald, it is true that I wasn't aware of Mark's work, but this is not the reason why now I came back with the datewheels on sale.

If this would be the reason, I would be in fault, as before producing something, I should have checked if anyone else was working on it.

The true is that I started quite long before him and almost one year before you, to work on the 2893 and 2892 DW upgrade.

The manufacture which is printing the DW for me, is actually working on the 2892-2 as well, during these days.

All this time I was in silence, it was waiting and fighting to get them be made properly, as Mark is not the only one who had to pass from hell, before to succeed and I passed there before him too.

In fact, although I would have now the chance to make ANY datewheel, I stopped myself to produce the 7750 and 7753 DW, right because I saw that Mark was releasing those.

But why should I stop selling the 2893/2892 ones, as I was the first to work on?

Now I would like to find a way out and I agree totally with Sssurfer, when he says that the members who made a preorder with Mark, shouldn't buy from me.

But i also would like to find an agreement with you guys.

If I understood right, you Archibald, are working on stickers and so they will be much cheaper than actual datewheels, although probably their quality wouldn't be the same.

But I think that your products will stand on a different target, than mine and Mark's DW.

Members who can't afford, or prefer not to spend too much for the DW upgrade, will surely buy from you.

While people who don't mind how much it costs, but want the maximum result, they wouldn't by yours anyway, but Mark's ones, or maybe mine too.

In other words, I don't think me and you are in competition actually, whatever Dw model we make..., this is at least my point of view.

Different is the position of me and Mark, as we probably are making the DW, with the same kind of technique and perhaps with similar quality level.

I would be rather happy if Mark's DW would be even better quality than mine, because so that, we would have three products, for three price ranges, as I assume that Mark's ones, cost more than mine.

Listen, if what we all are saying is the true and so, that none of us is doing this to make money, but just to recover the expenses, besides to the community interest, I don't think we will have any trouble to find a solution, good for anyone.

If instead someone is doing it for business, we might have some problems then.

In conclusion, personally, regarding the 2893-92, I would just like to recover my losses and nothing more, however I don't have a clear idea about the market potentiality of this DW.

Personally I also believe, that Mark should have very good return from the 7750/7753 DW, (I think they are now the most requested), as he would be the only one to work on them, so perhaps a solution could be that I would sell the 2893-2892 DW and he would sell the 7750-7753 ones.

Obviously, as I said, people who ordered 2892/3 to Mark, will get it from him.

This is just an idea, obviously if you don't agree, I couldn't complain, as the market it's actually free.

If Mark would like to say his point of view, it might be helpful.

Here I want also communicate to all of you, that I just started to work on the IWC Ingenier DW.

[Watchmeister]

Archibald is not a capitalist. He is pissed. Since Lello disappeared almost a year ago, as Archibald mentioned, people have operated in a civilized manner - specifically not trying to undercut one another. There are a number of projects which various folks have backed off of in order to avoid this issue. IMHO, this is not in the spirit of how folks have operated in the recent past of this forum. Although I am sympathetic to Lello and applaud his past efforts, the fact is that the 2892 project was only undertaken because the previous attempt had failed almost 12 months earlier and not to compete.

[lello]

To Kruzer00:

I hope the sense of your words is not that I'm operating to undercut anyone...

I've never said, or thought that Mark shouldn't start working on these datewheels.

Regarding the recoup money of the four DW of the last run, as I have wrote above, I will be happy to replace the old version Dw, at half of the price, that means 20 euros + shipping.

I believe this is an honest offer, as I pay more than that for them.

[sssurfer]

I agree totally with Sssurfer, when he says that the members who made a preorder with Mark, shouldn't buy from me.

Oops, I don't want to get misunderstood here.

What I actually said is that they should buy from Mark; and, if they want, also from you and Archibald:

I strongly hope that anyone who placed an order with Finepics on his datewheels will honour his word -- and naturally buy from Lello and Archibald too, if they like.

[TK471]

This thread is an interesting read for me. I wasn't aware of all the history.

I, for one, have posted only in Finepics' thread because I thought he was the only source of this date wheels. I believe that I have given Mark the impression that I would buy a wheel from him, and he may be counting me in on that assumption with his expenditures and orders. I really don't know what the status of those wheels is, but on some level if you make a commitment to a person on the board it's best to keep that commitment, otherwise you will find yourself unable to make any deals at all. Our reputation is ALL that we have on these boards, so it's best not to play fast and loose with those.

But what's wrong with multiple sources for these things?

[www_watch]

I stopped myself to produce the 7750 and 7753 DW, right because I saw that Mark was releasing those.

Hmm.....

Maybe I'm not 100% up to date about this.... but didn't Mark only make these for the 7753?

And as far as I've been told those won't fit the Asian 7750's

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought this was the last info so far?

[reelamore]

This is a cut and dry issue in my opinion..

We have the ethical question of members honoring their word and commitment,

and we have the availability of alternate sources of datewheels in the future...nice!

All good things to have and they don't have to contradict each other.

Once all the past committments are honored we can move on and all have fun shopping for the best datewheels..and enjoy long winded posts on "who has the best datewheel"

Healthy public forum economics and eticate.

It would be a boring place if we had one strap maker..

Lighten up all..& Merry Christmas..

[lello]

To www_watch:

you are maybe right, perhaps Mark is working on the 7753 and Archibald on 7750, but as far as I know, the 7750 will be a kind of sticker, although I'm sure it will produce a good result, it won't be exactly the same as an actual DW.

On the other hand, it will be probably much cheaper (I personally don't know the price).

As I recall I came in peace and I would like to hear Archibald and Mark about what I wrote above.

I'm getting a new Pam with asian 7750 (and one I have already) and so, I need good datewheels for these watches.

Is it possible to see a pic of what Archibald is producing?

If they are good enough, I will be very happy to get two.

But if they won't be good enough, I will need to make it myself, that would mean to make some more than two.

This for two reasons:

1) the manufacture doesn't print less than at least 20 pieces.

2) they would cost too much, without spreading the cost of cliché.

Are they ready to be seen?

[archibald]

I want to clear up a few things, technical and rhetorical.

1)Ok, I'm not a communist.

2)Since the "stickers" are, in fact, images of OEM datehweels that are tranfered to a proprietary material selected and modified to exactly duplicate the look of a real datewheel, and since the images are "printed" at a "resolution" (even theough the strict definition of "resolution" does not apply to the technology we use) so high that a human eye cannot discern any difference from screen printing, a watch with a watchmiester wheel will look identical to a watch with a screen printed date wheel, especially once it has the dial on it. Anyone who doubts this can hop over to ubi's thread and see if they can tell the difference between a watch with a watchmiester wheel and a watch with a vintage wheel installed. Even the flaws in the vintage printing were reproduced to a thousandth of a mm.

3) Since we have comissioned and recieved the basic material and since the graphics work is complete, the image transfer takes 24-48 hours depending on the workload of the shop.

I don't feel compelled to rush, but as per the paragraph above, we're at the point technologically and logistically where we can produce these at any time. We are making some aesthetic decisions (involving perhaps making the wheel look better than a 1:1 wheel on cyclopsed reps) which the technology affords us the luxury of making. We'll take as long as it takes to compare and decide, then we'll produce, install, and post pics. In the meantime anyone can produce and offer any product they want.

4)I'd be happy to discuss this with kruzer and ubi, but my vote is going to be letting Mark and Lello settle the 2892 problem between themselves (I plan on ordering 2 of mark's even though I could produce my own for personal use at a fraction of the cost even in a run of 2) Individual members can decide whether they want to honor their commitment to mark, or hope for a price war between lello and mark.

I'll also reccomend that we not double up on lello's 2892 or 2893 while he decides whether or not he wants to make wheels for other watches. If he decides to offer asia 7750 or asia 21J, I'll just assume this is a business, not a community effort of watch improving--which means providing our fellow RWG "consumers" with a choice: Screen printed numbers or numbers that look the identical but which were purchased for a fraction of the cost of producing screen printed wheels.

One thing lello said does need to be answered: Lello compared Palp putting out crowns to his putting out 2892 wheels. If lello's crown actually worked on all watches (see The Zigmeister's thread on the old RWG) without radical modification to both crown and watch, if they did not need to be chrome plated to match the reps' metal, and if they had the correct # of teeth and the right bevel, I doubt Tommy would have felt the need to produce his crowns. If mark's 2892 wheels wind up being as flawed as lello's crowns, lello has a pretty good point. If Mark's wheels work and look fine, lello the analogy doesn't hold water.

[lello]

Archibald,

although I'm not an English mother language and I'm not a perfect English speaker too, I have the feeling that your words are a bit weird.

As I just said, if your datewheels will be "good enough", there won't be any reason for me to start a parallel production.

From your words, we can deduct, your DW will be fantastic, when so, please can you put two apart for me?

But please, do the same price for me as for the others.

I assume that as you say: "Screen printed numbers or numbers that look the identical but which were purchased for a fraction of the cost of producing screen printed wheels", you mean that the numbers will be also in slight relief, for the effect of pigment thickness, as I personally believe that this feature, can be important to recreate the same feeling of a gen DW number, especially when viewed under good cyclop.

This being said, as I can see how sure you are about the quality of your DW, I don't think you will have any competitor's matter, as, as you stated, it's impossible to produce real printed datewheels, for the same price of a sticker.

So Archibald don't worry and be happy, you'r gonna sell many of them!

Edited December 3, 2006 by lello

[swdivad]

All I know is that the 2893 date wheels should be ready from Mark shortly. I have already committed to getting one from him, so that commitment will stick.

Everyone is free to do what they want, it's a free market, too bad that there was a double up on the 2893, but the market (albeit quite small) will sort itself out.

Now, if you have DWs coming for the asian 7750 that is perfectly aligned, I'm sure there'll be some takers there that won't conflict with what's already been done.

[TK471]

Sorry for posting again, but I'm confused.

I don't understand where anyone is on these improved DWs. Mark has a thread, but I don't know for a fact when they are coming or how much they will be. Do either Lello or archibald have completed DWs ready for sale?

[HauteHippie]

So I strongly hope that anyone who placed an order with Finepics on his datewheels will honour his word -- and naturally buy from Lello and Archibald too, if they like. I'll do it this way.

Yes, indeed. If we can't rely on people to keep their word, then projects like this will not continue to flourish!!!

[HauteHippie]

Most people don't know the history of the datewheels, myself included. I plead ignorance. I don't know who is undercutting who (if this is happening), if they're doing it intentionally, what the spirit of upgrade forum has been in the recent past, or even necessarily who has been involved. I think everyone is, however, quite excited about the hard work being put in by a handful of members and the prospects of top quality upgrades in the pipe. I do also think that many people who have been around a while know that single sources dry up. Lello really was the only PAM crown in town for a long while, and then poof he was gone. Palp stepped up, and after an initial mishap, produced something even better than Lello ever had. It's the natural progression of things. Look how much the watches themselves have improved. And yet, even though the Lello crowns were not perfect (and in fact had many well documented issues), they were far better than anything that came on our watches and nobody seemed to mind their many faults. Most people were all too willing to mod their watch cases (sacrificing water resistance in the process) to get those suckers to fit. Likewise, many people missed out on the 7753 project (myself included) and have been told that it was a one time deal. But now, perhaps (just perhaps), there is hope. Certainly, of course, the most logical thing is for Mark, the Watchmeisters, and Lello to do is coordinate their efforts. And I do hope that happens.

Now, recently I have been working with AR coaters in the USA as clearly there is nobody providing this service here. Does this mean I am undercutting Mark? I don't believe so. Clearly I'm not the only one in the US who hasn't wanted to ship their crystals to the UK. Does Mark believe so? I don't know. He won't respond to my PMs so perhaps he does. If so, I do want to work things out. Hopefully I'm not being included in the poor "spirit" of the upgrade community in the "recent past." And if I am, let me know.

[lello]

Sorry for posting again, but I'm confused.

I don't understand where anyone is on these improved DWs. Mark has a thread, but I don't know for a fact when they are coming or how much they will be. Do either Lello or archibald have completed DWs ready for sale?

I have 4 DW 2893 (for GMT) left right now.

You can see its pic on the top of this post.

I sell them for 40 euros+ 5 euros registered mail shipping.

I do have some 2892-2 (for PR) to the printer and should be ready soon.

I don't make it for 7753, because Mark is making it.

I don't make it for 7750, because Archibald is making it.

P.S.: please, members who spent their word with Mark, should buy it from him.

Edited December 3, 2006 by lello

[mikellem]

All I know is that the 2893 date wheels should be ready from Mark shortly. I have already committed to getting one from him, so that commitment will stick.

Everyone is free to do what they want, it's a free market, too bad that there was a double up on the 2893, but the market (albeit quite small) will sort itself out.

Now, if you have DWs coming for the asian 7750 that is perfectly aligned, I'm sure there'll be some takers there that won't conflict with what's already been done.

I am in agreement with David! I have commited to Mark for a 2893 Datewheel, and of course I will keep my commitment as so should any other member of this board!

I would also purchase one from Lello to compare and look for the best!