Building an MBW Sub + 'shortcut' rlx 1560/70 GMT conversions...

[automatico]

1-21-23

 

The notes below in italics were taken from a note I sent to a fellow RWG member concerning the 'shortcut 1655' project.  I took the movement out of the cartel '1655' case a while back and took it apart to install a minute wheel post aka 'stud' to turn it back into a regular 1575 date movement.  The original minute wheel post had to be removed during the 24 hour conversion because the conversion has a slightly smaller outside diameter minute wheel post with the minute wheel and 24 hour drive wheel mounted on top and it all turns in the main plate as one piece.  The OD of the conversion min wheel post is slightly smaller than the oem (pressed in) post to allow it to turn in the main plate. 

This particular movement (mid 1960s non hack) came with a brass bushing inside the minute wheel post hole in the main plate.

Q... Why is there a bushing in the main plate? 

A...No idea but most 15xx movements do not have the bushing.

I had to press another minute wheel post in the main plate so I could use a regular oem minute wheel made to turn on the pressed in post when going back to a 12 hour date movement. 

 

"I had to put another minute wheel post in the seemingly never ending 1575 project from the shortcut '1655'.  The first post I machined turned out to be too loose in the main plate so I had to cut another one and press it in.  The loose post was .49mm in diameter and the new one was .52mm and it is tight.  I used a piece of a drill bit for the new one by cutting a section off below the flutes, slightly tapering the end where it starts into the main plate. 

I used the minute wheel for a guide to keep the post 90 degrees to the main plate and pressed the post into the plate with the lever on an 'Inverto' staking tool.  This movement has a tiny brass bushing (noted above) making the job a bit touchy.  If the post is too small, it will be loose, if it is too big, it can push the bushing out when pressing the post in.  Luckily the new post went in with no trouble. 

The first minute wheel post turned out to be loose because I was being careful not to push the bushing out.  It was stainless steel (relatively soft), the second one is harder tool steel.

'Inverto' staking tool = the staking tool punches will also mount in the base of the tool, not just in the top where they can be tapped or pushed with a lever.  This in effect allows the punches to do double duty as 'stumps' or 'punches'. 

'Stumps = cups, stands, sharp cones etc. that are mounted in the tool base.  The base has a turntable that can be locked in place for precision work. 

 

Staking tool set like mine except this one has the push lever on top removed:

 

What I can't figure out is why some of the 15xx main plates have brass bushings because all the movements I've seen have the same size post pressed in the plate and all the minute wheels are hollow and run on the post.  Some of my 15xx movements do not have a bushing but they have the same 7888-1 minute wheel post.  Besides that, there is only one minute wheel part number (7888) and one minute wheel post aka 'stud' (P/N 7888-1) in the 'official' rlx parts list.  I ordered a genuine post (7888-1) for this project but it was a lot bigger about half-way down and the plate would have to be drilled out to use it.  Maybe it was the wrong part?  Who knows?"

 

I am going to get some date wheel spacer 'shims' made out of Mylar decal material to space the original DW 'calendar ring' up about .1mm to move the date wheel away from the 24 hour wheel on my next 'shortcut' GMT project.

'Date wheel spacer' = generic term for 15xx metal calendar rings that come in thick (GMT), regular (12 hour), or with sides that drop off for 'pie pan' dials on 16xx DJ.  Submariners, OPD use the regular calendar rings.  GMT rings are about .1mm thicker, now hard to find and high $$.

Q...Why is a thicker spacer needed for a GMT?

A1...Because the 24 H wheel makes the movement slightly taller and the hour and minute wheels can be too close to the dial.

A2...GMT canon pinion and hour wheels are also slightly taller than DJ/OPD parts. 

I will post a note on how it turns out but it may be a month or longer.    

 

This whole story pertaining to the 'shortcut 1655' project was posted as a guide (or warning) to anyone who wants to install one of these 'shortcut' 24 hour kits in a rolex 15xx movement.  If you do decide to install one, try to find a kit with the 24 hour drive gear mounted to the minute wheel and uses the original minute wheel post that comes in the movement.  I have seen a few in pictures so they are available but I could never locate a supplier.

[automatico]

2-9-2023

Another useless FYI...for anyone who wants to change a rolex 1565/1575 date movement to a no date model for use in a no date case, here are a few things you might need to know...

1...You can almost always get by with the regular date center wheel, canon pinion, and hour wheel.  The only thing this really does is raise the hands about .5mm.  This is usually Ok and it will make a little bit more room between the hands and dial...domed acrylic crystals are almost always high enough to accommodate it.

No date hour wheel is 1.27mm high.  

Date hour wheel is 1.80mm.

The canon pinion (the minute hand tube) rises up out of the hour wheel just enough for the minute hand to mount so the overall result is raising all of the hands aka 'hand stack' a little over .5mm, depending on how close the second hand is to the minute hand.  There is almost always room under acrylic crystals.  No guarantees.

 

On MBK cases for example (all of mine anyway), you need to use a rolex 15xx date movement with the date works removed because the cases are made for date movements with the calendar wheel spacer left on the movement.  This is done when using a no date dial, 5512/5513 for example.  This is easy because you only need to remove the actual date works.  Nothin' to it.

 

There is always a catch (or two) when using a date 15xx movement on genuine spec Ruby etc. cases made for rolex 15xx no date movements and dials.

Q...Like what?

A...You need to remove the calendar wheel axle (the little post with the left-hand thread, round, slotted nut on it).

Q...Why?

A...Because the calendar wheel post hits the bottom of the dial and the dial will not fit down against the movement, because it hits the post.

Q...How to remove it?

A...Pull it out with a small pin vice by twisting and pulling up on it.

But there is always another catch...

Q...What is it this time?

A...The date movement hour wheel has a wheel (gear) on top of it that drives the calendar wheel.

Q...So what?

A...It usually rubs the bottom of the dial when the calendar wheel spacer has been removed and locks the movement down...usually.

Q...What can be done about it?

A1...Space the dial away from the movement with 'dial dots' etc.  It works but is a crude fix.

A2...Grind the extra wheel off somehow.  

Q...How?

A...Superglue the hour wheel to a small steel rod that fits inside the hour wheel, put it in a lathe, and cut the wheel away.  Nothin' to it.

Q...What if I do not have a damn lathe?

A1...Superglue the hour wheel on a piece of steel rod and spin it by hand against a Cratex type grinding wheel mounted on a Dremel tool etc.  Carefully.

A2...Mount the steel rod in the Dremel tool with the hour wheel superglued to it, and spin it against a medium grit grinding stone etc.  Carefully.  Less chance of screw-ups using this method.

Q...How do I get the hour wheel 'unglued' from the steel rod?

A...Acetone, same as you use to remove your nail polish.    

 

After all the pitfalls above are defeated, place the hour wheel on the movement, put the dial on the watch (making sure it seats against the movement), tighten the dial screws, and see how much slack there is between the hour wheel and bottom of the dial by lifting the hour wheel up against the dial with tweezers.  A tiny bit is Ok...too much and the hour wheel can come out of mesh and get the hands out of correspondence.

Q...What is the fix this time?

A...A dial washer.

Nothin' to it.  

 

I cut the calendar drive wheel off a 1575 date hour wheel to use on a no date project with a date movement a while ago.  Here is what the hour wheel looks like after the calendar drive wheel is cut off:

The hour wheel is superglued to a .85mm drill bit (on the smooth end) and clamped in a 'WW' collet.  It will look better after it is cleaned up.  Grinding the wheel off gives the same result if no lathe is available.  This is the same movement that was in my 'shortcut 1655', it came out of a 1603 DJ and this is the hour wheel from it.

 

Or you can use a no date center wheel, CP, and hour wheel ($$), but you still need to remove the calendar wheel post.

 

[automatico]

5-22-23

I am adding this post about cleaning and oiling shock protected balance jewels so it will not get buried:

 

"Do any of you that service your own movements also clean both pivot holes of where the balance staff sits in with peg wood after rinse?"

 

I have also seen instructions that say to 'peg out' all hole jewels but I usually skip that part because I use an ultrasonic cleaning machine and have not had any trouble going this route.

 

I had three different master repair guys show me the ropes years ago and each one cleaned and oiled balance jewels on watches (with shock protection) basically the same way. 

Here are the basics:

1...Remove the cap/hole jewels.

2...If they are gummed up or stuck together, soak them in a solvent of some sort for a while until they come apart.  I use acetone because it is cheap.  'One Dip' will also work but it is expensive.  Btw, dry cleaning fluid (tetrachloroethylene) will also work, it is basically the same thing as 'One dip" used to be...if you can find it.

'Used to be' = the 'One Dip' formula has probably been changed because of the EPA.

3A...Put the jewels back in their shock settings and run them through the cleaning routine with the rest of the parts.

3B...Leave them out of the movement, put them in a small, fine wire mesh basket and clean them in a cleaning machine along with the other parts (cleaner and two rinses).

4...Let the jewels dry naturally or hot air dry them and inspect the cap jewel for chips or a glaze from oil etc.  Check the hole jewel for cracks, gummy deposits etc.

5...Rub the flat side of the cap jewel over a clean business card etc. to remove any film left by the cleaner/rinse.  Be careful not to dig into the card and create dust that may get on the jewel surface. 

Tip:  Look for an 'oil dot' in the center of the jewel after cleaning and rub it away.  If there is a dot that will not go away, run a screwdriver across it and see if it is a rough spot caused by a broken staff, grit, or something.  If it will not go away, it may cause excess friction and foul up the running rate when the balance staff is running against the spot. 

The fix = another cap jewel.

Be very careful when handling the cap jewel with tweezers because the jewel can shoot out of the tweezers never to be seen again.  Practice it over and over (with A 21J jewels etc.) until you 'get the knack of it'.

6...Oil 50% to 60% (some say up to 70%) of the cap jewel surface, making sure you are oiling the flat side.  Try to get a more or less rounded spot of oil on the cap jewel.

7...Set the hole jewel down on top of the cap jewel.  If you get it off to one side and smear the oil, clean them both in acetone etc. and oil the cap jewel again.   Setting the hole jewel down over the cap jewel is not as easy as it sounds by a long shot.

 

You can find a lot of discussions about oiling balance jewels on the WUS Watchmaking section although it is basically 'Pros' vs 'Hobby Guys' and the 'Pros' sometimes add a lot of 'prose' to impress the troops.  There are also never ending discussions about the 'old way' as I described vs the 'new way' to oil cap jewels using Bergeon jewel treatments to hold the oil in one spot.  I am leaving that subject alone. 

 

"Are the balance staff end tips oiled with an oiler or does one oil the pivot holes immediately after having oiled the midsection of the mating end stones?"  

   

No need to oil the hole jewel, capillary action will do it.  If you also oil the hole jewel it may 'flood' the jewels and cause the oil to travel away from the jewels.

I have a tiny capillary oiler that will pass through some hole jewels but it is hit or miss on getting the oil to flow properly.  

 

Cleaning and oiling the capstone on shock system? - General Discussion - RWG

 

[automatico]

From:

'THE  VINTAGE  ROLEX  FIELD  MANUAL'

CHEVALIER  EDITION

 

The stainless steel used in Oyster cases is an alloy recipe made from iron ore, chromium, nickel, molybdenum, and a few other trace elements. These trace elements give the iron ore its stainless, corrosion-resisting properties. Metallurgists call this alloy “300 Series Austenitic Stainless Steel”. 316 stainless steel is considered standard marine grade stainless steel. Despite the name, it is not resistant to warm seawater corrosion (specifically, chloride, fluoride, iodide, and bromide). 304L and 316L (316L is the low carbon version of 316) are derived from this 300 Series and are used in many pre-1987 vintage Oyster cases. Later Oyster cases use 904L steel with subtly different properties.

 

The common misconception is that 904L is harder and more scratch-resistant. The fact is, 316L has a higher Rockwell Hardness Rating (HR B 95) than 904L (HR B 7090), and 316L is also more scratch resistant and tougher to mill than 904L. It’s said to hold a better polish as well. 904L does, however, have better salt and acid resistance.

 

In the mid-1980s Rolex adopted 904L as a solution to pitting and crevice corrosion. This is a common problem on Oyster mid-cases of sport and tool watches. It was first used on the transitional Submariner Date ref. 168000.